Ladies: Would you get involved with a Saudi Arabian man?

[Johanna]

@truthSeeker2

Because as per Islam, a muslim can’t marry a non-muslim. Non-muslim has got to convert to Islam to marry. In the end, its all about numbers you know.

Self-styled truth seeker, spreading disinformation. :dubious: Your false statement has already been refuted. I just wanted to add that an Arab woman I used to work with married a Catholic American man. They got married in the mosque, with the imam, because the imam approved of them getting married. And this is in one of the biggest and most prominent mosques in America.

There’s no pope in Islam. No central dogma clearinghouse. Rulings of religious law come down to whose arguments are more persuasive to more people. Similar to what I’ve heard about Halakhic jurisprudence. If an imam can articulate a cogent argument of how to interpret some law differently, and convince enough people, then that can become considered a legitimate ruling. In the real world, of course, the rulers of countries often try to dictate which interpretation of Islam is legitimate and it gets politicized. Also, they used to say that the “gates of ijtihad” (independent juristic reasoning) were “closed” a thousand years ago, freezing in place the prior established body of legal rulings. Except that in the modern world, many Muslim thinkers and legists have had to confront changed conditions and new problems by reopening the gates and beginning to
think independently again.

None of which has to do with the OP. Sorry for the OT. It just frosts me when somebody who doesn’t know what they’re talking about acts like they do, and Islam is one of those subjects where I see more bullshit being passed off without getting reality checked, because Americans usually don’t know the truth from the bullshit. If everything non-Muslims claimed to be in the Qur’an were really in it, it would be the size of the Encyclopædia Britannica instead of the slim, terse volume it is. I just feel it’s a subject that needs more reality checks, because there’s a lot of disinformation circulating.

As to the OP, it sure sounds like you’ve gotten enough red flags to drive a flatbed carrying a house down the boulevard. I trust you’ll be winding it up with that guy tout de suite.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@grude

Seriously the guy left Saudi Arabia, he hopes permanently, I’m guessing he isn’t your average country bumpkin in his views.

Or he could be a sleeper terrorist looking for an American spouse to throw DHS off the scent. Paranoia is not always appropriate, but it’s always safer.

But seriously, people are people no matter where they come from. American men run the gamut from kind, respectful, decent and loving through to “Shut up bitch! Fix me a turkey pot pie!”; and you find both sorts in Alabama trailer parks as well as in Monterey suburbs. All you can do with them, or this Arab guy, is give them a chance, keep your eyes open, and don’t marry them until the relationship no longer feels “new.”

[AK84]

@AClockworkMelon

How wonderful it must be for the people of Saudi Arabia, a place populated entirely by members of the upper middle class.

Yes it must be. Considering about the only people who can afford to travel to the West are upper middle and above. The kind of women who the OPs date would know considering his likely social class are those who have a lot more disposable income than most ordinary people…anywhere. Caling them oppressed is about the most ridiculous statement anyone can make.

[Nava]

Katherine of Aragon never had a bad day in her life, gotcha.

[Alessan]

Who needs freedom when you have security?

[AK84]

@Nava

Katherine of Aragon never had a bad day in her life, gotcha.

You mean the woman who at times had to beg for money to be able to pay her ladies in waiting and handmaidens?

Next time get a better example.

[AK84]

@Alessan

Who needs freedom when you have security?

Lots of people would agree with that sentiment. Especially those who have lots of freedom and no security. Like say in parts of Somalia.

[Alessan]

Lots of people might agree with that sentiment. Most Americans wouldn’t. Seeing as this thread is about a Saudi dating an American, I think the American point of view is crucial.

[astro]

Americans tend to assume that their somewhat laissez faire attitude toward culture and faith are worldwide attributes among educated people. American women in like or love with foreign men are especially susceptible to this delusion.

No matter how modern seeming, smooth and sophisticated he may seem, for a Saudi man faith and family are the absolute pillars of their entire life. If you want to have a fling fine, but if you think you have a long term future re marriage and kids etc the odds are very, very long against it.

[truthSeeker2]

@Johanna

I just wanted to add that an Arab woman I used to work with married a Catholic American man. They got married in the mosque, with the imam, because the imam approved of them getting married. And this is in one of the biggest and most prominent mosques in America.

There’s no pope in Islam. No central dogma clearinghouse. Rulings of religious law come down to whose arguments are more persuasive to more people. Similar to what I’ve heard about Halakhic jurisprudence. If an imam can articulate a cogent argument of how to interpret some law differently, and convince enough people, then that can become considered a legitimate ruling. In the real world, of course, the rulers of countries often try to dictate which interpretation of Islam is legitimate and it gets politicized. Also, they used to say that the “gates of ijtihad” (independent juristic reasoning) were “closed” a thousand years ago, freezing in place the prior established body of legal rulings. Except that in the modern world, many Muslim thinkers and legists have had to confront changed conditions and new problems by reopening the gates and beginning to
think independently again.

When you’ve got a Muslim women marrying a Non-Muslim man, its actually an un-Islamic marriage. The religion specifically prohibits it:

“They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them” Quran 60:10
“And do not give your women in marriage to men who ascribe divinity to aught beside Allah.” Quran 2:221

And as you yourself suggested, the Muslim majority societies tend to dictate it such in a manner that its next to impossible to go for any different interpretation in such societies. Only in US or other such countries where Islam cant be enforced, where Muslims are in minority, different interpretations may work.

[CookingWithGas]

@truthSeeker2

Because as per Islam, a muslim can’t marry a non-muslim. Non-muslim has got to convert to Islam to marry. In the end, its all about numbers you know.

This is not entirely accurate; as mentioned by others men can marry non-Muslim women (with some qualifications). Muslim women, however, cannot marry a non-Muslim man.

Regarding conversion from Islam, in some conservative Muslim countries,it is considered a crime (apostasy), which is punishable by death where Sharia is rigorously practiced.

@Johanna

[truthSeeker2’s] false statement has already been refuted. I just wanted to add that an Arab woman I used to work with married a Catholic American man. They got married in the mosque, with the imam, because the imam approved of them getting married. And this is in one of the biggest and most prominent mosques in America.

I am married to a Muslim woman and I had the opposite experience. What country was the woman from? Islam is not exactly monolithic and practices can vary somewhat from country to country and within different socio-economic strata.

@Blackberry

…I brought up the subject of women’s rights in Saudi Arabia and as it turns out women are pretty happy not working and don’t really need to drive (but he thinks they’ll be allowed to drive within a few years and didn’t seem at all bothered by that).

I can’t speak personally with authority on this, but news accounts report on women who feel strongly enough about the driving prohibition that many have done so in an act of civil disobedience, and at least one was imprisoned as an instigator. That does not sound like all women feel that there is no need to drive. As far as working, I had the impression that many Saudi women do work, though under restrictions. Certainly there is not the opportunity of career choice offered here and although I’m sure many Saudi women have no urge to work, to say that they’re all pretty happy not working suggests that this guy is in deep denial.

[even_sven]

@truthSeeker2

And as you yourself suggested, the Muslim majority societies tend to dictate it such in a manner that its next to impossible to go for any different interpretation in such societies. Only in US or other such countries where Islam cant be enforced, where Muslims are in minority, different interpretations may work.

There are cultural Muslims just like there are cafeteria Catholics, Unitarians, extremely reformed Jews and atheist Hindus. In a handful of theocracies, you’ll find rules you can’t get around. But most Muslim people are free to determine which parts of the religion to embrace and which to gloss over.

[astro]

@even_sven

There are cultural Muslims just like there are cafeteria Catholics, Unitarians, extremely reformed Jews and atheist Hindus. In a handful of theocracies, you’ll find rules you can’t get around. But most Muslim people are free to determine which parts of the religion to embrace and which to gloss over.

At their hazard, and in Saudi Arabia the hazard is quite real and quite high.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@elbows

Yeah, ‘pretty happy not working’, is shining you on, he doesn’t want to talk about this, any further, as he will look misogynist. He knows it, too!

I wouldn’t even assume that - I would just assume that he is a product of his culture, and he was raised with that idea and sees nothing wrong with it. I would say this is part of the deep cultural differences a 29 year old American woman would have with an early-20s Saudi Arabian man.

[truthSeeker2]

@even_sven

There are cultural Muslims just like there are cafeteria Catholics, Unitarians, extremely reformed Jews and atheist Hindus. In a handful of theocracies, you’ll find rules you can’t get around. But most Muslim people are free to determine which parts of the religion to embrace and which to gloss over.

I was looking at list of countries sorted by Muslim populations:

Islam by country

There are 50 countries in which Muslims are 50% or more. Please tell us which among these nations would allow a non-Muslim man to safely and openly marry a Muslim woman.
I realize that all my posts are off topic in this thread. Sorry to the OP and others for that.

[Sahirrnee]

Be friends with, of course.
Date, maybe. (well not now, the on again/off again is on again)
Get involved with, probably not.

One issue as minor as it may sound for some people is that Islam forbids having dogs as pets. I love my dog, have always had dogs, and always expect to have them. The last Muslim I talked to about dating told me that if we got together it would be okay for me to keep my dog but he wouldn’t be allowed in the house.
I know not all Muslims feel this way, my sons best friend in elementary school was Muslim and his family loved dogs, had had them as pets in Pakistan, and were planning on getting one.

Another issue is that I am not a woman of the book.
I am not Muslim, Christian, or Jewish and I have no intention of converting or even pretending to. I may be able to deal with someone who is a devout Muslim, Christian or Jew, I doubt they can deal with me and my lack of belief.
How would his parents react to if he wanted to marry you? I’ve read that Saudis are very clannish and quite often marry cousins to keep it in the family so to speak. How would you feel if he wanted more than one wife? Don’t think because it’s illegal here that it doesn’t happen. One day the Pakistani woman I mentioned about came to my house in tears because her husband was trying to bring over another wife, he was lying to immigration and saying she was a cousin. The wife wanted my help in finding a divorce lawyer. It happens here, they may not be legal marriages but they will be religious marriages.

Another thing to check out is if he has a wife and children back home, or if he is expected to marry someone from back home. I dated two Nigerians and was asked out by one Israeli who had a wives and children back home. They didn’t think it should be an issue, they said it wasn’t an issue for their wives. For all I know it is an acceptable part of their culture, it’s not acceptable to me. That they never even thought to mention it before we went out shows just how little it meant to them.

Also, many people are fine with differing beliefs until the children come along. Then they realize just how important their religion is to them. Would you want your daughters raised as Muslims? How does he feel about female circumcision? One of the Nigerians I dated thought it was awful and refused to let his daughters be circumcised, the other thought it was normal, his wife and daughters were circumcised.

As far as women being pretty happy not working. I once read a piece written by an imam talking about how horrible it is that Western women have to have their babies in hospitals, surrounded by strangers (doctors and nurses) as opposed to having the baby at home surrounded by her loving family. No wonder poor Western women need unnatural pain killers, if they were sensible and had their babies at home they could experience the full joy of natural childbirth without the dulling effects of pain medications.
One can only hope that he gets a kidney stone the size of a walnut and of course he needs to pass it at home surrounded by his loving family instead of being attended to by strangers in a hospital.

[Poysyn]

I wouldn’t necessarily have issue with it personally as long as he was progressive, but professionally my security clearance would be affected and I would probably wonder if that (my job) was the only reason he was interested.

[raspberry_hunter]

@Anaamika

I’ve been trying to figure out how to say something in this thread without getting jumped on from five sides, and it’s this:

Not all of us who would not date a Saudi Arabian man are doing it out of prejudice.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a huge cultural clash.

Can I jump on you to hug you? Because THIS.

I didn’t have Anaamika’s problems, thankfully, but just considering the difference between my views and how my (US) culture shaped them, and my Korean parents’ views and how their Korean culture shaped them, and how we all act when we’re with other Koreans, I would never ever EVER date someone who grew up in any other culture, especially non-Western. Because the culture clash is so profound. (Being of another-culture descent and growing up in the US doesn’t count, and indeed was in some ways preferable back when I was dating because of the shared experience of culture-clash.)

I mean, I understand that other people can make it work, and good for you. But I just can’t.

[Blackberry]

@lindsaybluth

What did he say when you told him you had a kid?

He was surprised and asked how old she was, then when I told him she was 12 that’s when the topic turned to how old I am.

@Johanna

As to the OP, it sure sounds like you’ve gotten enough red flags to drive a flatbed carrying a house down the boulevard. I trust you’ll be winding it up with that guy tout de suite.

Yeah, but maybe we can still be friends…?

@CookingWithGas

although I’m sure many Saudi women have no urge to work, to say that they’re all pretty happy not working suggests that this guy is in deep denial.

Definitely. And maybe he’s feeling defensive about his country, knowing what we tend to think here, not *all *of which is true. He sounded a little defensive about religion too. It doesn’t mean he has no criticisms of his culture, but criticizing your own to an outsider is different.

@Cat_Whisperer

I wouldn’t even assume that - I would just assume that he is a product of his culture, and he was raised with that idea and sees nothing wrong with it. I would say this is part of the deep cultural differences a 29 year old American woman would have with an early-20s Saudi Arabian man.

He’s 29, I’m 30. No one is in their early-20s, that’s just what he mistakenly thought

But yeah, most people go along with most aspects of their culture. He still seems like a nice guy overall, but who knows what he would act like with his wife.

@sahirrnee

As far as women being pretty happy not working. I once read a piece written by an imam talking about how horrible it is that Western women have to have their babies in hospitals, surrounded by strangers (doctors and nurses) as opposed to having the baby at home surrounded by her loving family. No wonder poor Western women need unnatural pain killers, if they were sensible and had their babies at home they could experience the full joy of natural childbirth without the dulling effects of pain medications.
One can only hope that he gets a kidney stone the size of a walnut and of course he needs to pass it at home surrounded by his loving family instead of being attended to by strangers in a hospital.

There are plenty of Americans (even women!) who feel the same way. You can find them at mothering.com. Crazies, the whole lot of them.

[Johanna]

@CookingWithGas

I am married to a Muslim woman and I had the opposite experience. What country was the woman from? Islam is not exactly monolithic and practices can vary somewhat from country to country and within different socio-economic strata.

She’s from Palestine and the imam who officiated her wedding is from Sudan, the homeland of Mahmud Muhammad Taha and ‘Abdullahi Ahmed an-Na‘im, two notable and influential liberal reformists in Islamic law you might like to know about, who led the way to such liberalizations as I’ve seen in practice.

Yous have all gotten reports about Islamic law being rigidly fixed. A lot of that is propaganda that obscures the substantial liberalizations taking place in Islamic thought and praxis these days. All the topics that had been believed to be locked away for 1,000 years have been reopened, and there is a huge amount of internal debate, discussion, and intellectual ferment taking place internationally in the Muslim world right now, in which liberal reforms, like the one whereby my friend married a Catholic, are beginning to take hold. The mosque where she married is known for its liberal praxis; the women there are equal participants and equal in power to the men. Of course, the Salafis gnash their teeth that such liberal Muslims are going straight to Hellfire, and some would gladly volunteer to provide them an all-expenses-paid trip there.