The limits of racial tolerance -or- Would you want your daughter to marry one?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

First a bit of boring biography.
I’m American, male, white, and 45YO. My wife is Thai and 41. We’ve both worked in Saudi Arabia for many years and have a daughter who is 14 and developing (physically) at an incredible rate. For her entire life I have studiously avoided passing on the racial attitudes common when I was a kid. This was just common sense given our situation.

The issue concerns my daughter. As is normal, she’s interested in boys, not seriously yet but getting there. The problem is that the boys are locals. Arabic speaking, borderline Islamic fundamentalist types, with all that such a condition implies.

I know several American/Western women that have married local guys. They all have the same sad whine, “Abdullah/Mohammed was such a charming guy when I met him in the US/Europe. What’s happened to him?” These women are stuck, especially if they have children. They can neither drive nor work, they can’t travel at all without their husband’s written permission, and certainly wouldn’t be allowed to take their children outside the Kingdom. Shunned by the locals as being the next thing to a prostitute and considered as a diversion or hobby for their husband. They are often kicked out of the Kingdom without a dime and sent home when hubby gets bored.

OK, as I pointed out above, I don’t consider myself any kind of racist hate-monger but on the other hand this is not a life someone would want for their daughter.

So, the first question is: To what extent is someone justified in intervening in their offspring’s life if they are CONVINCED they are headed for a disaster?

The second question is: If someone (myself) intervenes in their offspring’s life on the basis of race/religion, what does that make them?

Thanks.

Testy.

Mods, if you think this belongs somewhere else please make it so.

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I think you are not racist at all,in fact you are doing the correct thing a father shoud do. No one wants to se their child hurt.

I will say this. If you found a guy who happened to be “local” but he co-insided with everything you wanted in a man for your daughterreligious wise,though wise,everything,then his race woundnt matter. In fat,put yourself in your wife’s Fathers shoes (your stepdad) how much did he intervine for your and her? And how accepting was he of you? Therin you shall find your anwser my friend :slight_smile:

3

I wonder if you’re doing the inevitable father – daughter thing. Presumably, in due course, she’ll leave Saudi and go to college in the US so are you worried things might go wrong before then or isn’t that the plan ?

4

Sagasumono.
Well, my father-in-law was not at all keen on his daughter marrying a foriegner but did accept it after a few years. He’s a good guy and one of my friends now. As far as finding a local who I would approve of, I know many of them and we get along just fine. I don’t dislike them but do find many of the local customs extremely hateful toward women. I’m fairly certain that I would NEVER approve of one marrying my daughter though. The guy would be under too much pressure from his friends to allow her any sort of independant existance. Thanks for the feedback though, it’s reassuring.
London_Calling.
You may be correct on me going through some sort of inevitable father-daughter crisis. I’ve been told that having daughters is God’s punishment for having been a boy. S
Also right in that it isn’t a problem right at the moment. It will be a problem here much sooner than if we were in the UK though, marriage ages tend to be fairly young by our standards. I have every intention of sending her off to a boarding school in the next year or two though. Thanks for the reply.

Best regards to you both.

Testy.

5

Testy:

Perhaps a good way to look at it is what kind of men your daughter will be around who will be her age. Look at how they treat women. I don’t consider this a racial prejudice so much as an observed behavior of a certain group of people with the (understandable) worry that it will be true for the various boys/men your daughter encounters.

I would caution you that sending her off to school might give her all the more reason to want a secret boyfriend she knows you’ll disapprove of. Remember rebellion? Hello and welcome back, rebellion.

Perhaps it would be wise to sit down and explain to her, with her mother there and doing some of the explaining, what behaviors you have observed in the boys she is around and what you find wrong with that behavior and what you find right with it (not suggesting that there’s a whole lot of right, just saying you should try to give as clear a picture as possible). The more she knows, the better she’ll be in the long run.

Just some thoughts. Good luck:)

6

So, has life in Saudi Arabia turned you into an ardent feminist? :slight_smile:

Ultimately, assuming that your (or anyone else’s) daughter is of age and is of sufficiently sound mind to make legally binding decisions, you can advise, cajole, and rent a copy of “Not Without My Daughter”, but you have no business doing what’s best for her (in your opinion) without her consent.

7

The bottom line is that while the plumbing crosses all racial, religious, political, and socio-economic lines, attitudes do not.

That is not to say that two people from different cultures can not be happy together.

example: A woman whose views are relatively feminist in her native arabic culture might match quite well with a man who is considered a male chauvinist in the US.

In most cases, I would say that it is your responsibility to make sure she understands what she is getting into, to get to know her boyfriends. and provide as much loving guidance as you can.

In your case, however, there is an ironic twist. We are talking about allowing your daughter the independence to make her own decision as to whether or not she wants to enter a culture where she will never be allowed the independence to make her own decisions.

Are you doing your daughter a favor by allowing her to date according to American standards? No wonder the local woman think western women are tramps. They are being ignored by the local boys because your daughter has more freedom than they do. It would be tantamount to an American girl showing up in school wearing a thong bikini with a string of condoms wrapped around her neck.

Would your daughter garner as much attention from these boys if you were as restrictive with her as the local fathers are with their daughters?

If you want to let her decide, fine. Either she dates western boys only, or she dates middle eastern boys using middle eastern rules. In other words, “When in Rome…”

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by iampunha *

I would caution you that sending her off to school might give her all the more reason to want a secret boyfriend she knows you’ll disapprove of. Remember rebellion? Hello and welcome back, rebellion.

Good to meet you, Iampunha. This is precisely what stymies me on this issue. Anything my parents told me was “strictly verboten, off-limits etc.” was automatically attractive and just what any red-blooded boy would want to do, as frequently as possible. I assume she would be much the same on an issue like this.
As far as the school goes, it would definately be in Europe or the US but probably not until she hits high school age. I will set her down and have one of THOSE chats, but it’s hard to get across to her what will happen if she actually hooks up with one of the local guys. I’m not sure if I could actually make her believe that such things could actually happen to her, personally. The joys of parenthood. S
Thank you for replying and I believe I’ll have that talk tonight.

AHunter3.

Well, life here hasn’t actually made me a feminist, but I am a LOT more sympathetic than I used to be. S

As far as not having the right to do what I consider best though, I think that is what parents are for. In the US and, I assume, Europe, the legal age of consent is around 18. Yes, maybe less in specific circumstances. AFAIK, there isn’t actually a legal age of consent here. To be fair, I haven’t seen any child-brides running around but haven’t looked for them either. The trouble with the kind of match she would make here is that it is a one way trip, effectively ending in imprisonment.

I guess we disagree, but thanks for replying and all the best to you.

Hey Kid_Gilligan.

Thanks for the reply but there are a few misunderstandings. There actually ISN’T any dating here, by Western or any other standards. An unmarried couple in public are running the risk of arrest and, if either is a foreigner, deportation. There are, naturally, quite a few guys more than willing to run the risk but so far, I haven’t allowed her to do any dating at all. I do allow guys to come over to the house and I get to know them quite well. Many are my students in my Kali class. You are right about one thing though, the comparative freedom of Westerners is one of the reasons the locals consider them as either prostitutes or the next thing to one. Thank you for your time though, I appreciate it.

Best Regards to all of you.

Testy.

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by iampunha *

I would caution you that sending her off to school might give her all the more reason to want a secret boyfriend she knows you’ll disapprove of. Remember rebellion? Hello and welcome back, rebellion.

Good to meet you, Iampunha. This is precisely what stymies me on this issue. Anything my parents told me was “strictly verboten, off-limits etc.” was automatically attractive and just what any red-blooded boy would want to do, as frequently as possible. I assume she would be much the same on an issue like this.
As far as the school goes, it would definately be in Europe or the US but probably not until she hits high school age. I will set her down and have one of THOSE chats, but it’s hard to get across to her what will happen if she actually hooks up with one of the local guys. I’m not sure if I could actually make her believe that such things could actually happen to her, personally. The joys of parenthood. S
Thank you for replying and I believe I’ll have that talk tonight.

AHunter3.

Well, life here hasn’t actually made me a feminist, but I am a LOT more sympathetic than I used to be. S

As far as not having the right to do what I consider best though, I think that is what parents are for. In the US and, I assume, Europe, the legal age of consent is around 18. Yes, maybe less in specific circumstances. AFAIK, there isn’t actually a legal age of consent here. To be fair, I haven’t seen any child-brides running around but haven’t looked for them either. The trouble with the kind of match she would make here is that it is a one way trip, effectively ending in imprisonment.

I guess we disagree, but thanks for replying and all the best to you.

Hey Kid_Gilligan.

Thanks for the reply but there are a few misunderstandings. There actually ISN’T any dating here, by Western or any other standards. An unmarried couple in public are running the risk of arrest and, if either is a foreigner, deportation. There are, naturally, quite a few guys more than willing to run the risk but so far, I haven’t allowed her to do any dating at all. I do allow Western guys to come over to the house and I get to know them quite well. Many are my students in Kali class. You are right about one thing though, the comparative freedom of Westerners is one of the reasons the locals consider them as either prostitutes or the next thing to one. Thank you for your time though, I appreciate it.

Best Regards to all of you.

Testy.

10

Does your daughter know any of these women? If not, can you introduce her to some of them? Maybe a few words with one can make an impression on your daughter. I know, it may be difficult, because they may not be allowed to visit you without a male chaperone who wouldn’t allow them to talk openly to your daughter.

That’s a tough question. As a parent, you’re responsible for your daughter’s well-being until she reaches her age of majority. In this case, I think you’re more than justified. I think boarding school sounds like a possible option, or maybe sending her to live with family back in the states. One thing to consider, though. If she’s lived in Saudi Arabia all of her life, would she be able to adjust to life in a typical high school in the states? To her, it could seem like chaos.

If I were in your situation, I’d think about moving the whole family elsewhere.

Another tough question - you could be considered anything from a bigot to a concerned parent. I think you’re justified in taking actions to keep her from what could be an unhappy life. At 14, she’s probably not ready to make a decision as life-altering as this one. I know I wasn’t. You may not be able to prevent it, but you can help steer her to something different.

I have seen a similar situation. A friend’s aunt married someone in Kuwait 25 or 30 years ago. They had 2 daughters, and she finally got to the point where she had to leave the country. Her husband was quite liberal, and agreed to divorce her, partly because she had borne no sons for him. She came back to the states, but without her daughters.

When she got back, she found out she was pregnant. It was a boy. Had she waited a month or two longer to leave, she’s convinced she never would have got out.

11

You know what, though? (And I probably don’t have to tell you this.)

If you make a mistake out of love and concern for your daughter, chances are she’ll get over it.

It’s when you care more about preserving your sense of tolerance than you do about your daughter that you’re in for trouble and resentment.

Doesn’t sound like that’s a problem, though.

12

Every day I find another reason to be thankful I had only boys.

That said, I think it’s time for you to get the hell out of Dodge. Not because of racial issues, but because of cultural issues. The available dating pool is undesirable not because of their race, but because of their attitude towards women.

You’d have the same problem if you were located in the Amazon, surrounded by natives who were polygamous animists with life expectancies of 30 years. Undesirable dating pool.

You want the best for your daughter – very understandable. Now go put her in an environment where she can acheive your dreams for her.

13

It sounds like the only culture your daughter has any real experience of is Saudi culture and that what she accepts as “normal” is going to have been very much shaped by that.

My brother spent many years working in Arab countries, and always made a point of taking the girls (he has 5) on holidays back home. Is there any chance of your being able to make sure your daughter spends time on a regular basis in some of the western nations where women take their independence for granted?

I’m inclined to agree that the boarding school option could backfire. If your daughter has absorbed the Arab culture in any significant way, she could be treated as something of an outcast if she elects not to exercise her freedom while at boarding school.

If you aren’t living in a compound with other Western families, is there any chance of you hooking up with families which are? Perhaps through the military or through your embassy.

14

I, personally, would feel personally justified hog-tying a daughter and shippping her out of the country before I would let her marry into such a restrictive culture if she were a day under 30. (post 30 I guess you have to assume they know thier own mind). I might be exaggerating a little, but I am not sure.

I think to answer the broader question we would have to know your daughter–have you lived in Saudi her whole life? Does she associate with other Westerners? Does she read Western books, TV, etc. What would concern me would be if she accepted as normal things like not being able to drive, not being able to work, being passive, all because of her gender.

In many ways I am sure the experience of growing up in such a different culture will help make her a wonderful, curious, tolerant person. But I think I would go for the boarding school thing if I could afford it and if she was at all open to the idea. If, as an adult, she decides that she prefers the society in which she was raised to the society in which you were raised, that would be her choice. But she deserves to know that there are other options out there, and I think culture shock is easier at 15 than 18. For one thing, at University you have to be an adult, whereas a boarding school takes care of the sort of decisions parents make for thier children. The shock of being exposed to a totally different culture and having to function as a full adult in that culture all at once would be tricky. I am sure she could do it–plenty of people do–but why make it harder than it has to be?

I would also get her used to the idea that marrige before 25 is a bad idea on general principles. Don’t lecture her, or lay down the law, just be sure she knows that your over-all world-view is that marrige is something best delayed til after college. Children tend to do what they feel is expected or normal. Not always, mind you, but it is better than nothing.

15

Whoa…testy, you had me going there for a minute. I thought you might have been the father of my son’s girlfriend [mixed Thai/White marriage] and I thought you were going to talk about my son [another mixed marriage but different groups] and how inappropriate he would be for your daughter!

Ok, let’s take a step back. Yes, there are cultural factors, religious factors, gender factors [the “he was a different person when I met him” cliche is NOT limited to Saudi Arabia]. I think your questions deal with parenting young adults/older kids as they enter puberty and their early sexual years. As a parent you will need:

a. faith that you have brought up your daughter to think for herself [granted this is a gradual process that takes years]

b. belief that your daughter has been trained by you to make pretty good decisions after weighing consequences and benefits

c. understanding that your daughter might need to have some insights from your perspective, but she will need to have increasing confidence in her decision making. [make clear guidelines on what she can and cannot do and ease up as she demonstrates good judgment]

d. patience to hold yourself back from making her decisions

e. understanding that she, as we all do, will make some bad decisions and that you are there to help her pick herself up and go on.

It is envitable that she will lead her own life someday. You can help ease this transistion starting earlier than later.

Mr kiffa and I have always made it our business to know the parents of our kids friends. This was sometimes awkward - especially when we lived in various African countries where the parents were taken aback by two Americans standing at their compound gates. We had folks over for cookouts or dinner. Knowing the parents might help you understand who you are dealing with. HOWEVER make sure that folks understand that this is not perspective inlaws getting together so have a big blowout party [forgo the liquor]with lots of friends together.

16

Multiple posts, how embarrasing.
Ralf_Coder
“Does your daughter know any of these women? If not, can you introduce her to some of them? Maybe a few words with one can make an impression on your daughter. I know, it may be difficult, because they may not be allowed to visit you without a male chaperone who wouldn’t allow them to talk openly to your daughter.”

That is a good idea but as you mention, gaining access to them is a problem. I’d be iffy about the male chaperon as well. I believe it is probably the best short-term thing I can do for her though.

“Another tough question - you could be considered anything from a bigot to a concerned parent. I think you’re justified in taking actions to keep her from what could be an unhappy life.”

Well, in the worst case I get considered an Archie Bunker type. If that’s what happens, I guess I can live with it considering the alternatives.
Your friend that married the Kuwaiti was mostly right. She would have been able to leave after having a boy but the child would have been kept there. Believe it or not, the Saudis consider Kuwaitis as somewhat lax in their religious duties.
Thanks for weighing in on this.

Kid_Gilligan.
You’re right, the value I place on my sense of racial tolerance is WAY down the scale from the value I place on my daughter’s welfare. Thanks Guy.

Danalan.

Yeah, you’re right. Probably time to move on down the road. If there’s time though I think I’ll wait a bit for the job market in the US to improve before I do it though. Damned family economics keep interfering with what I’d really LIKE to do. S

Thank you for pointing this out. This is what I really NEED to do, just a bit difficult at the moment.

reprise.

You ask how much Arab culture she has picked up over the years. Life in Saudi is odd in that most Westerners live on compounds. (Think of a luxury jail designed to keep people out.) She watches some Western TV, reads American books, attends American school etc. but it is still surprising how much Arab culture she has acquired. On our last visit to the US she kept wondering where the police checkpoints were. She does have a lot of experience with Thai culture from her mom. Maybe I could use your brother’s idea as a stop-gap measure. Europe is easy to get to from here and would make a great antidote for what she’s learned.
It’s an idea and as she’ll be out of school in a month or so I think we’ll give it a try.

Thanks reprise, it’s a good idea and I’ll do it.

Hey Manda OJ.

Finally, direct action! Yeah, if it comes right down to it I would indeed hog-tie her and ship her or take her out of the country. My daughter will NOT become someone’s part-time hobby. (Not to use a much cruder term)
I’m going to pitch the “wait till you’re older to get married” idea as strongly as I can without making her contrary/obstinate. Unfortunately, she knows quite well that I was married the first time when I was 20. Oh well, my sins and screwups coming back to haunt me. S
She’s lived her entire life here. We take holidays in the summer but this is what she thinks of as normal. Her male friends are western but her female friends are from just about everywhere, including local. A strange thing there, her local female friends are unable to spend the night with our family as it is considered likely that I would molest them. That’s nothing personal, their parents don’t even know me. It’s just assumed that any male will have sex with any unaccompanied female over the age of puberty.
I think I’ll check into the Swiss boarding schools for the next semester though. OUCH! S
Thanks Manda OJ, it was kind of you to take the time to respond.

Best regards.

Testy.

17

So there isn’t really “dating” there and you’re suggesting that she wait until age 30 to marry? Hm, those teens and 20s are gonna be a real dry stretch. I agree with the poster who said you should seriously consider, for your daughter’s sake, moving to a country where she can have a normal social life.

18

You’re right of course. OTOH, we’re here because I make enough to afford a lot of things that I wouldn’t be able to in other circumstances.

regards.

Testy.

19

When I moved last, I promised the kids it would be the last time we moved until they were out of High School. When the job I moved for went away, I ended up spending the last 3 years on the road, travelling up to 90%. Now I’m home every night, but my commute is 2h10m each way.

One to go – he graduates in June. It’s not about the money, it’s about the quality of your life. I wouldn’t worry that much about the job market, if you’re willing to live basically anywhere USA you can find something, I’m sure.

20

Thank you for responding. We do try to help her grow and become more adult in the ways that you outlined. Saudi is a bit unusual in that there isn’t a great deal of social interaction between foriegners and the locals. We are seen as somewhat of a necessary evil. As far as the Western boys, we do indeed know their parents through barbecues, parties, whatever.

I understand that the “He was so different before we married” cliche isn’t limited to Saudi, but it seems universal here. I’ve been here for quite a while and have yet to meet a Western woman who had things turn out the way she expected. I have very few problems with culture shock and neither does my daughter, we’ve travelled quite a bit over the years. What I object to is the culture she would be locked into if she made that decision. While it’s very non-p.c. to slam some other culture, I simply don’t consider this one to be a good option for a female. Other cultures, either Western or Asian are fine. I just want her to be a happy, healthy adult.
In any event, thanks for replying and all the best to you and yours.

Best regards.

Testy.