"Land of the Free, home of the Brave"

Great Debates
1

I’m curious about the above description - namely whether the average American does view themself as coming from a land that is “freer” and “braver” than other countries.

From my POV (in the UK) these two elements appear to be common to American rhetoric I’m exposed to - admittedly, that’s places like Fark.com and the like. But again, to my eyes, the US seems on a practical level *less *free than my own country - things like requiring ID for various activities (driving, cashing a cheque, etc.)

I realise that from the US point of view, the converse may be true - US folks might cite the prolifieration of CCTV cameras, or the lack of a written constitution, or gun control.

To me, then, it seems that "what we have collectively decided is important defines our definition of “free”. " Having decided that use of guns is important, US itizens see it as a benchmark of freedom; whereas those of us in other countries simply don’t. Yet to me, driving without having to carry ID is a benchmark of freedom, whereas a US citizen might not agree with me. That’s because I’m used to one, and the US citizen is used to the other.

It seems to me that it’s not more than habit. What you’re used to is “right”. what “they” do is “wrong”.

So the question is this: do you guys in the US feel that you genuinely are more “free” than us in, say, the UK, France, or any other Western country?

I realise we could have a long, inclusive, and ultimately argumentable dick-waving contest about who is better, etc. I’d like to avoid that if possible - obviously we all see our own ways as home, and prefer things the way we know them.

But - the question is about perception, not reality. Do the US folks perceive themselves as more free than the other folks on this board?

2

I don’t think so, but I think most Americans do.

3

And do you think this is down to rhetoric and propoganda, or reality?

It’s intriguing. I’m certainly not trying to say “you are not more free”, “you are less free” or “you are more free”. I know I like things the way I’m used to them, and I suspect that most people in the Western world feel the same.

4

I guess a person’s answer depends what he values, but I think it is absolutely outrageous that a person who isn’t bothering anyone is not allowed to drink a beer while walking down the street. Or that someone can’t have a beer on the National Mall next to the Washington Monument on the Fourth of July. It always makes me think, “Home of the free? Really?”

5

As Ravenman said, it depends on your definition of ‘free’ and ‘brave’ (last time I was in DC on the Mall was on the 4th of July in the 90’s and we were certainly drinking…is this something new?). Personally, I think that every country has archetypes and attitudes about their perceived national spirit, whether they have catchy phrases like ‘Land of the Free and home of the Brave’, or some unspoken collective image that they are brought up with and buy into. Nothing wrong with that. Trying to parse such a phrase and decide if it’s true or not is, IMHO, an exercise in futility, as it touches on the very core of what makes us human and causes us to identify ourselves with a group larger than a hunter/gatherer family unit.

-XT

6

It’s the last line of the first verse of our national anthem. I think that’s really the big reason it’s used.

7

I’ll probably get shat on for this, but I suspect people are free-er and braver in Somalia. That doesn’t make it better.

8

So, in the UK you don’t need a license to drive? In the US you don’t need an “ID”, you need a license. Cashing a check is a non-governmental activity, but are you saying you can cash a check in the UK without ID? That seems… unbelievable.

So, maybe those were just bad examples. Anyway, I think people in Western Democracies are all pretty much equally free. There may be minor differences, but not much. I can exhibit NAZI paraphinlaia, where my friends in Germany can’t. But that’s not that big a deal.

9

My point of view is America arose to a large degree from people who went to a new and wild land to settle it. Often this they did this to obtain freedom that they didn’t have at home and it required bravery to do so. I think due to this that it became part of the national self identity. I don’t think Americans are freer or braver, but I think that it is more important to them because of their past.

10

Do people in the UK think of their country as a land of hope and glory?

11

Sure. Are you saying that living in the UK, you feel that the US (or France or some other Western country) is more free than you? Unless you are in the small minority of folks like the DT equivalent of a UK citizen, you are going to think that what you are familiar with is the ‘right’ way, and the way others do things (especially when they are different) are subtly ‘wrong’. I’ve been to the British Isles many times, and while I love it there and have a lot of friends there, I have to say that it’s a lot different than what I grew up with…and there are a lot of things that I consider to equate to ‘less free’. Are they subjectively ‘less free’? Probably not. But they are different, and the emphasis is different.

Exactly. And asking your fellow citizens, they are going to feel exactly the same way. They aren’t going to be sitting around saying ‘Man, those Americans/French/Italians/whatever are a lot more free than we are!’. If they really thought that then they would pack up and go somewhere else…unless they just like being less free.

BTW, have you ever sat down and read the lyrics to other nations anthems and national songs? The US isn’t exactly unique in this (my first thought when reading the OP and seeing that you are from the UK was the song Hearts of Oak ;)).

As to whether or not the average citizen in the UK or US is ‘freer’ I’d say…both perceive that they are, because both are used to the way things are in their country while a lot of things in the other are subtly different.

-XT

12

It’s just a slogan that comes from the national anthem.

After all, do Canadians think of themselves as “glorious and free”?

13

Keep in mind those words were written in 1814. The average American was substantially freer than the citizens of most countries back then. There’s a lot more freedom now than there was then so we don’t stand out as much now.

And the brave part probably came from the fact that Americans had started their own country in what was still living memory in 1814. That took a certain amount of courage.

14

The US values and nurtures independence more than some other countries, which is a kind of freedom. If I want to move a thousand miles away from my parents in pursuit of a job opportunity I have that physical and social freedom. It takes courage to strike off on my own and do that. I have the freedom to succeed or fail spectacularly on my own. Contrast that to countries that are smaller – I can’t get that far from my support network and still be within the national boundaries, or with countries that value a more cooperative way of life.

I’ve been in restaurants in Japan with a person who confessed she wanted to order drink X, but of course ordered drink Y because that’s what everyone else was having. This type of conformity is a kind of non-free, non-brave behavior that other cultures may admire because of the social harmony it promotes. Of course these same Japanese people were freer from the possibility of being shot or robbed on the way home from the restaurant, freer from religious pressure, and freer from dubbed anime.

15

Yes, and our hearts literally glow, but we wear thick coats to conceal it.

16

I KNEW it! Canadians are really extraterrestrials!

17

You don’t need to carry or produce said license.

I think that many in the UK do indeed (falsely) think of themselves as a nation as possssing superior qualities to the rest of the world. In no means would I dare suggest it was a US phenonemon only; but the board is 95% Americans or something.

I have not said this, no.

18

I think the ban was instituted in the late 1990s. Can’t remember the exact year that we became no longer free.

Oh, and “home of the brave?” Just look at the skyrocketing sales of hand sanitizer. We are collectively a bunch of chickens in the face of a little dirt.

19

Right. Which was written during and about a time when the Revolutionary War was still fresh in the national conscience and we were again at war with Britain and under threat of the restoration of the tyrannical rule of the British monarchy were we to lose.

We really were a brave and free country then. And remained so, more or less, until about the middle half of the 20th century. Now we are pretty complacent in my view.

ETA…beaten by Little Nemo!

20

You do need to produce it, either at the stop or within 5 days.