Language Deconstruction refuted for all mankind (misogyny)

This whole language deconstruction as a tool of oppresion against women is a load of horseshit, and nothing more.

We start with the intellectual works of Focault and Jacques Derrida, and their inquiries into what language that pervades modern days says about the attitudes that occured during its origins.

Thus this form of semantic archeology aquired it’s valid origins. Implied in the forms and mores of language are the thought processes of the people and times, as well as the social conventions that originated the phrases.

What are not carried within the language are the thought processes and attitudes of those to whom the language is handed down after it’s originations. Phraseology reflects orgins only, not current usage. Terms may be loaded, but usage isn’t. Archaic and outmoded forms perpetuate, though their meanings and connotations change.

“Queer” is now a source of unity amongst gay people, while gay becomes the perjorative. “Whipping boy,” and “scapegoat” have their origins in slavery and mean much the same as “nigger,” but don’t carry the same connotations merely because of random convention. If you don’t believe that you’re being a dodo, because without the conventions, pandemonium ensues. That’s the bad shit, or, perhaps, the straight dope.

Foccault and Derrida understood this, and their examinations focussed on the mental constructs inherent in the origins of language. Usage changes, in much the same way I rent out what used to be a one room shoolhouse as living quarters in the corner of my property. The fact that my carriage house was at one time a pig-pen in no way reflects my opinion of any guests I may have staying there. My old dairy barn is now a horse stable, and the rat runs and milk ways lie dormant.

The interest in these origins is mere archeology. The guests in my guest house do not become swinelike, nor do I impose swinish thoughts on them by letting them stay there. The people in the schoolhouse do not become more educated by living there, and my horses do not moo as the result of their living in a dairy barn.

These same things apply to the archeology or deconstruction of language to the same degree as they do to the archeology of builidings.

Fast forward to modern American intellectuals of the 50s 60s and 70s many of whom influenced by marxist philosophy sought to free the proletariat of the American “free” society. These proletariat were of course women and minorities. Many, if not most of these efforts were merited and laudable.

It’s the funny irony of history that much of the work of the American Communist party which sought to overturn our society by revolution merely resulted in greater freedoms for all members of that society, and the proverbial more perfect union. More irony entails through the witch hunts which crucify this group, for it’s espionage and propaganda activities, inadvertently martyring it.

As it turns out the good that the party indavertenly did American society is forgotten, and while we all knew McCarthy was a paranoid ass, we also forget that Communist spies with ill-intent were actively sabatoging and seeking to overthrow our society with the ultimate goal of removing some of the very freedoms they were propagating.

Anyway, end result is a martyred and disenfranchised intellectual left and a stronger and more free American Society.

Who then to peer squintily through the “invisible panapticon” of language, as Michel Focault put it?

Enter Stanley Fish, Yale PHD, who these days brings down $230,000 a year as a Professor of “body parts, execretory functions, the sex trade, dildos, bisexuality, transvestitism, and lesbian pornography.”

But Fish is best known for his “reader-response theory” originating back from when we wasn’t trying to be so desperately germaine.

The great idea behind “reader-response theory” is that writtne works have absolutely no meaning inherent to themselves but only that concocted as a mental construct by the reader.

In other words, if you think The Constitution is a primer on pig-fucking, then it is.

Nice idea, huh? Brilliant.

This intellectual masturbation was largely met with the apathy it much deserved were it not picked up by another idiotic Yale PHD by the name of Judith Butler.

Judith Butler you may recall is most famous for her invention of the term “Womyn” to ostensibly free females from the inherent male-despotism that denies them their freedom as a diferent “species” and insists they must be “60% male.”

When Judith lost the support of popular feminism which took a disturbing turn towards rationalism she became the self-proclaimed diva of “queer studies” where sadly much of her rhetoric has been picked up and embraced. It seems the curse of every worthy cause to have its origins corroded by such quackery.

She continues to comically demonstrate her “performitivity” theory of language and sexual behavior as forms of anarchy to the amusement of many, and the alarm of many more rational scholars who several times in the past have been forced to gang up and communally refute as pure drivel one of her crazier ideas which enjoyed a surge of popularity in much the same Pokemon did. Most recently she won the award for “Bad writing” from the journal of Philosophy and Literature for one of her more egregious attempts at scholarly obfuscation.

She defended herself by asserting that “Ponderousness is a part of the phenomenological challenge of the text.”

Uh-huh.

So, when you play your little language Nazi games of deconstruction, you follow in the bold footsteps of Butler and Fish whose contibutions to philosophy and culture and the understanding of same are akin to the use of leeches, bleeding, and medicinal uses of ingested mercury.

You’re engaging in pseudoscience, quackery, and drivel.

There is a fine line to be drawn between offense taken at the use of the word “scapegoat” (which you claim was derived from derogatory terms for a slave) and, for example, use of the word “fag” as an insult (not meaning gay).

The fact is that words have to go through the transition period where they retain their original meaning and are used for another, more innocent meaning.

Sorry if this was a hijack and not what you were arguing.

This sentence interests me, what did you mean by it?

I was going to inquire what your blood alcohol level was when you put together the OP, but I feared it might be taken as an ad homynem (sic) remark.

Got any good drivel cites we could wade through?

**

Agreed, and not what I was arguing.

I was being sarcastic, implying that Fish and Butler have assssumed that they are the only ones capable of understanding the gestalt of the prison of language, and that they have somehow acquired (perhaps through obnoxioussness) wardenhood of the panopticon.

The inherent contradiction of course is that being native English speakers without being multilingual, it is impossible for them to even perceive it, much less sit in the warden’s seat.

Multilingual scholars tend not to agree. One of my friends admits that it’s easier to give orders in English, conduct business in German, and seduce women in French, but that’s hardly a panopticon.

Yes, that would be rude.

http://www.gooddrivelsite is a good one, or would that be considered an ad hominem?

[Let’s be careful with our “made up URL’s”, m’kay? – MEBuckner]

[Edited by MEBuckner on 12-06-2001 at 08:08 PM]

Language deconstruction is, to me, absurd, in that it expects that you share the same understanding of the words in order to understand that you should be deconstructing it. “There are no absolutes,” and other witty paradoxes are fun for drunken babbling, but it feels very dishonest to me when presented as factual and philosophically sound.

Jack:

I’m being facetious, not insultyng, as I assume you were, lest my repsonse be misynterpreted as angry.

You know Scylla you should probably realise that even made up links can have porno sites behind them.

Uh-oh. I’ll email a mod.

Scylla wrote:

“Scapegoat” comes from the story of the goat for Azael, who shouldered all the blame for the Israelites in Leviticus 16:8. According to http://www.m-w.com , the first verifyable written instance of “scapegoat” in English was in 1530.

That I was as well. I refrained from usage of a smiley, merely to avoid engaging in a tool of the oppressor.

Not sure I’ve completely understood the OP (some support for Jackmannii here) but I’ll take a shot.

It is indeed true that words often completely shed their original meanings. But they sometimes don’t. You cannot bring the examples given where the original meanings have indeed been lost, to imply that all original meanings are no longer extant.

In the specific examples given by Stoid in the current Pit thread, the meanings she cites are clearly understood (though one might quibble about whether the implications are still there).

Also, there is no doubt that the meanings of words might change based on the perception of the hearer or reader. This does not imply that the meaning of the speaker or writer, but it does mean that this is the message that is actually conveyed.

But I may have missed the boat here.

tracer:

and “nigger” has it’s roots in the French “negre” or Spanish “negro.”

“Gay” and “queer” also had other uses before being applied to Homosexuals.

Perhaps “Buck” would have been a better example than “scapegoat,” but if I recall correctly the term was widely used in the 19th century south meaning to find a black person to blame.
Izzy:

Indeed, I think the application of word archeology and building archeology is an apt comparison. Some words are highly loaded, and their past usages make them innapropriate for a time just as you wouldn’t want to build your house directly over what was formerly a toxic waste dump.

This isn’t what Fish and Butler refer to. Specifically, they build on Focault’s invisible prison theory of language saying that many conventions of language are inherently prejudicial.

The whole “womyn” thing is an excellent example, as it’s in response to the perception that that the use of “man” to mean “people,” “he” to mean generic individual and “woman” as a modified or qualified “man” is somehow inherently subjugating females, and indeed, at least in the case of Butler misqualifying them as members of the wrong species.

Do you use the words “husband” or “wife?” You do know what their origin is?

My point exactly.

“husband” and “wife” used to mean negro slave too? :wink:

Scylla,

The fact that these people may be taking the theory to an extreme and applying it in cases where it is inapropriate does not disprove the entire underlying theory, which seemed to be the thrust of your OP (& thread title). You cannot disprove the theory by pointing to any specific example.

Err…

The whole of language deconstruction as it is used in political activism is founded on Fish’s reader-response theory which is taking Focault’s panopticon to to ridiculous extremes that even the 50s marxist propandists didn’t dare.

Fish and Butler are the Charles Darwin and Marie Curie of modern deconstruction. The fact that they’re self-aggrandizing pseudointellectual quacks and their theories are activist pseudo-science does indeed refute it.
Reader-response theory takes the writer out of the loop as far as determining meaning for his statements. It doesn’t get to be more quackish than that.

Scylla

I’m not sure what you mean. Leaving aside for a second all the various issues that you have with these people, do you disagree with my first post to this thread? (It could be, again, that I’ve simply not understood you).

ERL: Hi there.