Latest idiotic "Won't SOMEBODY PLEASE think of the CHILDREN?" moment [school rules]

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
I’ve substituted as a Phys Ed teacher in elementary schools a number of times. Needless to say, dodgeball (and all its variants) and tag (and all IT’S variants) are quite popular. There is something inherently fun about running around, shreiking and screaming, and/or throwing things at other people. But I have always tried to turn the play and organized fun to games that involve less demeaning and more cooperative spirits. To me, all that tag does is single out the slowest, least agile person in a group and then forces that person into a learned helplessness when they become totally unable to tag anyone else to get rid of “it” status. This is almost always accompanied by gales of laughter, taunting the helpless child. Dodgeball is worse, because the unagile player is repeatedly pummled with the balls, made to sit out the activity, teased for inability to hit someone else with a ball, etc. And why would we teach kids it’s ok to throw things at others??
[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, unless the activity is well-supervised, there is a chance–not a certainty–that it will devolve into the kind of thing you’re describing here. There are, however, plenty of ways to avoid that outcome, as long as the teacher/supervisor is willing to put in a little effort. And last I checked, teachers–while not paid a lot–are making more than babysitters, so I think it’s fair to expect this effort from them.

Let’s start with dodgeball. Playing with foam balls rather than the hard inflatable rubber balls is a start. I’ve also seen variants like “Alley Dodge Ball”, where the only ones allowed to throw are the ones who’ve been elimminated. This group surround the central group at a distance, the “less agile” kids are naturally the ones doing the eliminating, and the more skilled kids are the only ones getting pegged. With tag–if you see a situation like the one developing, get yourself in the game and get deliberately tagged, passing “it” on after a few fun moments of chase to the toughest kid in the group.

Really, this stuff isn’t hard. There is nothing “demeaning” about competition if it’s done right. Banning tag is just as much an excuse for lazy teaching as when the phys. ed. teacher rolled out the dodgeballs so he could have an easy class.

22

A whole bunch of secondary schools were closed down in my town recently in order to make way for two new ‘Super Academies’. They created a controversy when they announced there would be no playgrounds. Their reasoning: “I think what the public want is maximum learning.”

So forget tag, forget competitive sports or games in general. If we have to treat our children like robots in order to educate them… So be it! Apparently.

Lets ignore the fact that exam results are getting better every year - Which of course can only mean that exams are getting easier - Which means children are getting dumber.
Lets ignore the fact that some children are pushed away from society so much that they’re joining gangs. Or that youth crime is on the up.
Lets ignore the fact that a lot of children are becoming overweight or obese, spending most of their time sitting in front of a TV or computer.

Lets ignore all that because it’s just not important. All that’s important is education, education, education.

I don’t know what we’ll do if we ever develop a way to instantly implant knowledge into a child’s brain… Maybe we can cryogenically freeze them for 12 years of their life instead.

23

As pointed out, a well-supervised playtime should mean that these episodes do no occur. Yes - even organised games deteriorate into mad running about, but that is what school lunchtimes are for. Supervisors need to find the balance between healthy yet mad running around and all out chaos. Having spent the last 15 years doing playground duties I would like to add my two cents:

Children NEED to run about and let off steam, (especially those who have difficulty behaving, making those children miss play as a punishment is so stupid it needs a thread all for itself…)

We had children who would complain they were being chased but didn’t want to play. Firstly we would explain to the chaser that a game is only fun if both people are smiling, so don’t chase people who don’t want to play. Secondly we would take the chasee to one side and tell them “If you don’t run, they can’t catch you. Stand still and tell them you aren’t playing that game today.” See, how hard was that? They got it.

We did however, only allow football twice a week. What was happening was this: a group of about 30 boys brought in a ball and played football, taking up the entire playground, leaving everyone else squashed around the sides, living in fear of being smacked in the face by the ball (it wasn’t as if their kicking was anything close to accurate)… So, that had to stop, which brings me to my final point: give them a place for these games. Draw a line on the ground in chalk and say, stand on that side of the line and you are in the game, this side you are not.

Shame they banned it, do we know how much talking they had done with the students before deciding to all the trouble of a banning?

24

This has nothing to do with tag, ‘thinking of the children’, or how things-were-better in-my-day. The playground was not being properly supervised, two parents complained, and the adminstration treated the symptom. It sounds more like a case of lazy administration. Don’t many elementary schools staff recess using volunteers? Perhaps that’s the case here and the monitors were understaffed or not competent enough at dealing with conflicts.

I think half the reason these stories are run are to rile people up about how we’re too soft on children these days. Just like the stories about political correctness going too far. Just RO.

25

[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
I agree with most of what you said here. But it is important to recognize that banning the playing of tag on the playground is different from banning tag as part of PE. The only people playing tag on the playground are willing participants.
[/QUOTE]

You beat me to it. And it’s a huge difference.

But I remember dodge ball in gym class. From a personal standpoint I did pretty good, but the fun fun to see if I could do better than I did last time. I think I learned also that even if I was not the star I could usually contribute in some way. Maybe get out one of the other really good kids on the other team before I was sidelined. I never begrudged the really terrific athletes their skill, even if I found myself to be their target.

As far as tag, I love it. It’s one of the easiest ways for kids to just start having fun and figuring it out for themselves. We need more tag, not less.

26

[QUOTE=ticker]
British Bulldogs should be made compulsory, IMHO
[/QUOTE]

We had a triangular playground, which made this quite interesting.

27

[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
I agree with most of what you said here. But it is important to recognize that banning the playing of tag on the playground is different from banning tag as part of PE. The only people playing tag on the playground are willing participants.
[/QUOTE]

Missed this line in the article, did you:

28

[QUOTE=hawksgirl]
Jeez, what kind of assholes did you play with? I seriously don’t remember this ever happening as a kid. As I recall, the laughter was a result of RUNNING AROUND and HAVING FUN, not making fun of people. Besides, someone would let themselves be tagged if it went on too long, because one person being it forever isn’t fun. Maybe I played with decent friends as a kid.
[/QUOTE]

I went to school with a bunch of total assholes. Unfortunately, I didn’t get to choose my schoolmates - I had “decent friends”, but they weren’t at the school where I spent around 7 hours a day, 5 days a week. I would be surprised if my experience was unusual.

Tag was grim - I hated it when the “cool” kids decided to play, because there was no escape. My choices were to play against my will, or to refuse to play. If I refused, I’d get tagged. When I told them I wasn’t playing, the entire schoolyard would surround me and taunt me. It would last a while, too - beating up on the weaker kid is infinitely more fun than tag…

Oh, they’d get bored eventually, and I suppose I learned a few lessons about standing my ground in the face of adversity. But hell, there had to be other ways.

29

[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]

Oh, they’d get bored eventually, and I suppose I learned a few lessons about standing my ground in the face of adversity. But hell, there had to be other ways.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is, like teachers (or other school officials) actually doing their jobs and supervising playtime.

And the “entire schoolyard surrounded and taunted you”? Are you being hyperbolic, or were your breaks totally unsupervised?

30

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Missed this line in the article, did you:
[/QUOTE]

No, I didn’t miss it, because it’s right there in the OP. But the point is that you don’t lose any self-esteem or get bullied for being the slowest if you’re not even playing the game. As already pointed out, the fix to being chased if you’re not in the game is simple: stand still or go about doing whatever you were doing. I’ve taught kids this and it works with all but the very youngest.

31

[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
Why shouldn’t tag be banned? And dodge ball? And every other game that, at it’s core, involves proving that one child is the least physically gifted around, and then subjects him/her to physical and verbal abuse, or drives the point home by making it impossible for him/her to accomplish the desired goal?

I’ve substituted as a Phys Ed teacher in elementary schools a number of times. Needless to say, dodgeball (and all its variants) and tag (and all IT’S variants) are quite popular. There is something inherently fun about running around, shreiking and screaming, and/or throwing things at other people. But I have always tried to turn the play and organized fun to games that involve less demeaning and more cooperative spirits. To me, all that tag does is single out the slowest, least agile person in a group and then forces that person into a learned helplessness when they become totally unable to tag anyone else to get rid of “it” status. This is almost always accompanied by gales of laughter, taunting the helpless child. Dodgeball is worse, because the unagile player is repeatedly pummled with the balls, made to sit out the activity, teased for inability to hit someone else with a ball, etc. And why would we teach kids it’s ok to throw things at others??

Now, one could assert that this sort of detrimental behavior could be regulated, so that it doesn’t “get out of hand.” In a perfect world, perhaps, but in today’s schools, often there are 200+ kids on a playground at a time at lunch (rarely is there recess other than at lunch), watched over by one or two individuals. Having been one of those individuals, I will point out the virtual impossibility of trying to keep a lid on such an activity, while 175+ kids are doing something else which needs supervising. And playground supervisors are rarely chosen from among the, um, shall we say, mentally elite of society. Under such conditions, it is not surprising that schools would choose to simply ban the “game” entirely.

That this is not a controversial decision is shown by the fact almost no one complained. Thus, with resect, I’d have to say that reacting with incredulity to this decision shows that it is your opinion that is out of kilter with society. And, unless you have been a playground supervisor, or teacher, I’d suggest spending some significant time in one of those positions before forming an opinion of how idiotic the decision is.
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What’s scary is that you’re not joking. Rather than let a child lose and have his/her feelings hurt, we should shield them from all competition. That way, when we’ve put them in the bubble for so long and they think that they are simply the best ever at everything, we send them into the workforce or to college and they can learn the lesson we tried to avoid giving them in a most brutal fashion, with kids that we didn’t “protect” and who will grind them into powder athletically and academically.

Something tells me that that’s a really bad idea.

Of course they didn’t complain. The better kids get bored with the ease that they can play and the weaker kids don’t want anything to do with competition because they don’t want to face the reality that someone could possibly be better than they. How could that be after their parents tell them how great they are?

32

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Well, smart productive people have shit to do, leaving those slots for crazies and idiots who have too much time on their hands.

Or so I gather.
[/QUOTE]

Jeez, thanks, I only had to read one post to find someone to steal my thunder. You are correct. And if someone with one micro-ounce of common sense were to engage their time in such an organization they would be outnumbered and ridiculed to no end. I’ve been, I know.

And this is also true.

33

[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
And, unless you have been a playground supervisor, or teacher, I’d suggest spending some significant time in one of those positions before forming an opinion of how idiotic the decision is.
[/QUOTE]

Whaddya mean? Most of us here spent the better part of 15 years in grade school and a couple more in high school. We’re plenty experienced in the art of tag and dodge-ball. We don’t need to have been a playground supervisor to understand the idiocy of a ban such as this.
Tag has been around for probably tens of thousands of years. I’ve found that the weaker students of the game actually end up teaching other kids a lesson. Often (not always, more like eventually), the weaker kids will get help from one or more of the stronger players. We all know the weak kid will just give up and the game is over. Before that happens (it’s a very predictable event) a stronger player will usually offer himself up to be tagged and/or become a teammate of the weaker player. This is a display of compassion, teamwork, and friendship. All good things.

34

I think that sometimes adults forget that children are pushed out of their comfort zone on a daily basis, expected to perform tasks (giving speeches, making new friends, selling crap door-to-door) that adults would never tolerate. People ask them personal questions (“How old are you?” “What are you going to be when you grow up?”), remark on their appearance (“You’re getting a little heavy” “You need a haircut”) and criticize their preferences (“No, that book/movie/shirt’s no good - how about this one instead”).

When was the last time you put two adults together for a “play date” – “Hey, you’re both 29, I’ll bet you have a lot in common!”

I’m not a fan of meaningless accolades - my twins received trophies, actual trophies merely for showing up for soccer several weeks in a row. Absolutely ridiculous, giving a 3-yr-old a trophy. They never even played any games! We won’t be signing up there again.

But if the school district won’t or can’t supervise recess and some kids are being bullied day after day, then something needs to change. I wasn’t there, I don’t know what-all options that district had. If the net result, though, is that more children are getting exercise and playing together, then that was the right choice.

Dealing with unpleasant emotions is essential, yes. Sometimes it goes too far. I don’t see why children should have to put up with crap that adults don’t tolerate. If someone was harassing YOU on a frequent basis, YOU would do something.

35

[QUOTE=fessie]

But if the school district won’t or can’t supervise recess and some kids are being bullied day after day, then something needs to change. I wasn’t there, I don’t know what-all options that district had. If the net result, though, is that more children are getting exercise and playing together, then that was the right choice.

[/QUOTE]

I’m guessing that if they can enforce the ban on tag then there must be enough of an adult presence on the playground. They just happen to be inept at supervising.

36

[QUOTE=CaveMike]
This has nothing to do with tag, ‘thinking of the children’, or how things-were-better in-my-day. The playground was not being properly supervised, two parents complained, and the adminstration treated the symptom. It sounds more like a case of lazy administration. Don’t many elementary schools staff recess using volunteers? Perhaps that’s the case here and the monitors were understaffed or not competent enough at dealing with conflicts.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this; the ban was put in place because of a lazy administration. The “think of the children” part explains (at least partially) why so few parents complained, and why the ban is likely to remain in place: Anyone arguing against it is going to be cast as someone not “thinking of the children”, which is an instant loser in current US society. Most folk know this, so they just don’t bother.

That could be true; let me be clear that a child should not have to put up with harassment on the playground. Banning the game, however, is a lazy solution, and it seems from the links I provided earlier that lazy solutions to problems with students (e.g. zero-tolerance policies) are far too common in American education.

The comparison with the “Political Correctness Run Amok” meme is interesting. The general idea is that people can reason their way to an idea/solution which is clearly idiotic or over-reactionary, a kind of modern-day sophistry. It seems to happen quite frequently in education: School decides it need to do something about drugs, thinks the rhetorical splash of a “zero-tolerance” policy will scare kids enough to do the job, then follows their logic to a point where they’re suspending a straight-A student for having a Midol or aspirin. Hilarity (and a kicker story in the local paper) ensues.

The key point: The second step is a lazy, low-effort solution; just announce the policy and you’re done. The outcome–not to mention the public outcry–proves it. But sadly, there isn’t much public outcry in the tag case; the parents in this case seem to be taking it in stride. That’s why I called this one in a “Death of 1000 cuts” manifestation of a deeper social problem.

37

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Be honest here: tell me that the kids actually liked noncompetitive sports in the same way as competitive ones. I very, highly, extremely doubt that in any way. “Cooperative” games are intriniscally not games at all. It might be “play,” but I know of no game ever in histoy in which there was not a winner or loser. And team-play games are honestly even worse for individual underacheivers or non-atheletes. You have to know your rules and position, know how the others are going to react, etc. And then, because you’re not athletic, you don’t eprform well and your teammates get mad and you.
[/QUOTE]

Um, cooperative games include football, baseball, etc. What part of cooperative means uncompetitive? :rolleyes:

38

[QUOTE=CJJ*]
With all due respect, unless the activity is well-supervised, there is a chance–not a certainty–that it will devolve into the kind of thing you’re describing here. There are, however, plenty of ways to avoid that outcome, as long as the teacher/supervisor is willing to put in a little effort. And last I checked, teachers–while not paid a lot–are making more than babysitters, so I think it’s fair to expect this effort from them.

Let’s start with dodgeball. Playing with foam balls rather than the hard inflatable rubber balls is a start. I’ve also seen variants like “Alley Dodge Ball”, where the only ones allowed to throw are the ones who’ve been elimminated. This group surround the central group at a distance, the “less agile” kids are naturally the ones doing the eliminating, and the more skilled kids are the only ones getting pegged. With tag–if you see a situation like the one developing, get yourself in the game and get deliberately tagged, passing “it” on after a few fun moments of chase to the toughest kid in the group.

Really, this stuff isn’t hard. There is nothing “demeaning” about competition if it’s done right. Banning tag is just as much an excuse for lazy teaching as when the phys. ed. teacher rolled out the dodgeballs so he could have an easy class.
[/QUOTE]

What part about keeping things in control on a playground during recess did you fail to comprehend? Teachers aren’t out on a playground, you know; they are in their rooms doing prep work for the rest of the day. So the decision isn’t about what a PE teacher does, it’s about what is going on out on the barely supervised playground.

As for what goes on in a PE class, explain again the fundamental value we are instilling by allowing kids to throw things at other kids, purposefully trying to hit them with it? :rolleyes:

39

First of all, you have absolutely no idea if there was a “lazy administration.” You don’t know what prior situations have occurred, you don’t know what other steps were taken, you don’t know anything except a minimalist report on a news service wire, as edited to show up wherever you found it. You aren’t competent to judge what happened on the basis of that.

Secondly, as has been noted, the tag games did not simply involve willing participants, as noted. And more than one person has shown up here complaining that they were the victims of such behavior, yet your only response to that sort of statement is to ridicule the assertion. How about accepting that, perhaps, something you thought of as fun and games, enjoyable for those you remember, wasn’t always so enjoyable for everyone involved? Perhaps, things weren’t quite what you thought they were, eh?

Thirdly, there is nothing in what I said previously that was an indictment of competitiveness. After all, there are plenty competitive games where the inability to be physically active at a level equivalent to others isn’t the spotlight of the game. Soccer, for example, or baseball, or football, or basketball, or… See the point? Compare another old time favorite: KeepAway. Set up as a team activity, it’s not so bad, … until you notice that what is happening is that the mean spirited players are playing keep away from the less agile, refusing to let them have a chance at touching the ball, or whatever is involved. CAN it be played in an enjoyable fashion? Sure. Will it always? NO.

Now, anyone who carefully read what I wrote before will understand that I did NOT say that Tag was an evil sport always to be avoided (unlike Dodgeball, which, frankly, I don’t see any redeeming value in, see recent post). What I said was that, in today’s resource strapped schools (think about that the next time you vote on a levy or tax for them), to assert that it is “idiotic” to ban a game of this nature on the playgrounds during recess is itself idiotic. The game simply cannot be properly supervised, in all likelihood. And to assert that such a ban is “idiotic,” without having experienced for yourself the difficulties inherent in trying to keep such behaviors from deteriorating to troubled situations is simply wrong. In making such an assertion, you are talking out of your arse. And no, you can’t rely upon your memories of having been a child on a playground to act as a guide.

In a society that worries about why people like Dylan Klebold exist, refusing to accept that part of the problem may be how we “play” is simply playing Wise Monkeys with the issue. :rolleyes:

40

[QUOTE=fessie]

When was the last time you put two adults together for a “play date” – “Hey, you’re both 29, I’ll bet you have a lot in common!”

[/QUOTE]

I take it you aren’t recently divorced with a lot of oh so very helpful friends trying to convince you to go on blind dates, or more often to not bother to tell you and oddly leave you alone with strangers at parties.

“We all have to go see if the pizza has arrived yet. Why don’t you keep talking to Jane and we will bring you a slice?”