I’m guessing you cannot read Spanish enough to read RAE’s explanation. B and v are both supposed to sound like an English b, which seems Rosetta Stone has about right, in places which do not distinguish them.
In places in which it is different, v is pronounced like the English v, meaning harder in sound than b.
It seems in parts of South America and Spain, the letters are differentiated, but in Guadalajara (Mexico), Central American, the Caribbean, and even parts of Spain both letters are pronounced exactly the same. The only difference is in writing.
Heh, I never knew about the Spanish equivalent of L’Alliance française until this thread. The “b” in Spanish never sounds as hard as in English to me, though this may just be some sort of confirmation bias. It always sounds a bit softer (i.e. not as voiced?). Am I just imagining things?
That may be my own “English is not my first language” thing in there, but just general, b and v are pronounced the same, and if they are differentiated, b is softer than v, following examples from other languages. I probably pronounce it then softer than what a native English speaker would think. Huh… that may explain things…
Real Academia Española has been around for… eh… forever? And it is composed today by several academies, usually one per Spanish-speaking country. Puerto Rico has its own academy despite not being a recognized independent country, and I think there is one for the United States. These are of fairly recent creation, so I’m thinking that in the beginning it was based mainly in Spain.
B/V - My understanding is that both letters stand for a single phoneme in Spanish that is expressed by two different allophones, a plosive and a fricative.
For those who are familiar with a variety of Spanish in which both allophones appear, it should be impossible to derive the spelling simply from hearing the pronunciation.
Pardon my editing, but I just don’t plan on spending my afternoon translating this.
So, for one, I stand corrected. OTOH, heresy! I might be late XX century, but I was always thought to differentiate them. Heck, even s and z. Failing to do so was one of the marks of a poor education. I still do (and probably will continue to do so until the PR influence erodes my primitive schooling) and can easily recognize them when other people speak (one of many hints in determining the origin of the people I speak with).
Rice is riz in French, not ris. Looking online, people have transcribed the final two words of that commercial as “les frites,” “le riz,” and “les fruits.” I can’t find any audio of it, though. I actually thought it was “les frites” the one or two times I’ve heard the commercial, but now I think it may be “le riz.”
Shrug Good luck claiming heresy on an original cite from three centuries ago, published close the foundation of the academy. Guess you don’t do seseo, then? And you forgot the part that the movement in the early XX century started due to an effort to imitate other languages (ie, as something foreign, where it had no place in Spanish nor had had it in centuries).
I was taught how to differentiate all of them, and my guess is most people are taught. Otherwise, how do you know how to spell the word correctly without context when you’re in grammar school and just starting (dictations)? Plus I was told other dialects may differentiate, but that mine didn’t, nor was it the mark of an uneducated person not to differentiate. And seriously, for me, if someone else from Puerto Rico talked to me like that, I would put it as a sign of ultracorrección, and think (at first) that the person is a pompous ass who thinks he/she knows better (and thus truly uneducated).
And yea, the dialectal differences are useful to recognize the origin of others.
And I want to stress someone from Puerto Rico… If you (Sapo), or a Spaniard, or someone from another country spoke to me like that, I would think different, I would think at first that it may be their own dialectal quirk.
I’ve always been taught that b and v are pronounced identically whilst learning Mexican Spanish. I’ll accept the academy’s judgment, too. I’ve also seen the b and v as perhaps the most typical spelling error while in Mexico, too. Even my native-speaking wife insists that they’re pronounced differently.
In practice, though, I hear a distinction from a large number of Mexicans (and other nationalities on Spanish-language television). It’s very subtle. The v has a very slight hint of an edge to it, as in English.
In the beginning, there was only Spain. I mean, it’s been around long enough that what are now separate countries were parts of Spain back then. The full list of Academias is here.
I’m trying to come up with a difference between b and v in Catalan and can’t, but then, I’m an “unschooled speaker,” I never had Catalan classes.
I have no idea, I put Galicia and Catala because the only thing that RAE mentioned is that the distinction is made in Spain, if any, in places where other language is usually spoken (which would include Galicia, Cataluña, and Basque country, no?).
The RAE says that the differentiation of v and b happens in “valencianos o mallorquines y en los de algunas zonas del sur de Cataluña, cuando hablan castellano”, so it seems that the difference doesn’t occur in Catala, but when catalanes speak Spanish.
They sure sound the same to me, and I have heard the same thing in school.
On the flip side, when my wife studied English in high school, they told her that “man” and “men” are pronounced identically, which any native English speaker would immediately say is not true. To a Brazilian, the sound is very subtle, especially in the middle of a sentence.
I imagine that b vs. v is similar: native speakers know the difference while Spanish teachers and textbooks tell us to say them the same.
Shrugs As I’ve said (as a native speaker), in my region, people generally do not differentiate it. The occassions I’ve seen it differentiate is during class, by teachers giving us dictation while we’re still learning the words (and without a context); and then by people who think they should be pronounced different (NOT teachers, educators, or schooled people). Again, though, IME, during my primary and secondary schooling, with Spanish as the main language, the teachers actually made a point to say that those differentiating b and v, at least in Puerto Rico, where doing a mistake of ultracorrección. This is something I have heard of many teachers in my region say, and IS backed up by the RAE, which is the main authority when it comes to this.
Now, as to how people speak on the streets… Well, yea, nobody speaks it correctly all the time, not even correct for their dialect (and I think of my compatriots when I write this). If they differentiate the consonants, it does not mean they are speaking it correctly.
Oops: big mistake. I meant to indicate that my wife insists that they’re pronounced the same, i.e., all evidence points to their supposed equality, but that in practice, I hear a distinction, even from my own wife.
Long story short, it is a regional thing. Some regions do, some don’t.
The RAE itself said not to in the 1700’s, then pushed for differentiation for 200 years, then said there is no difference. The official stance, as of today is that there is no difference. How long will it be official? who knows. People in the streets still do it or not based on how it goes in their region and not in what the RAE says. At least nor right away.
They will have been trying to say “I will not buy this record, it is scratched”. Truly, the lack of knowledge of classical Pythonology in the youth of today is lamentable.
For serious. Can’t access youtube at work, but searching “monty python hungarian phrasebook” ought to bring up the sketch. It involves a phrasebook purporting itself to be Hungarian/English, but translates all the Hungarian phrases as bizarre and or sexual. The conversation which occurs in a tobacco shop includes such gems as “you have beautiful thighs,” and “my nipples explode with delight.”
And it is composed today by several academies, usually one per Spanish-speaking country. Puerto Rico has its own academy despite not being a recognized independent country, and I think there is one for the United States. These are of fairly recent creation, so I’m thinking that in the beginning it was based mainly in Spain.