Dammit! I was feeling so clever and now I feel like an idot. Howdaya work that thing?
The first one was fine, the second one needs a slash, as in:
{quote}Boo{/quote}
Only with square brackets instead of squiggly ones, of course.
AHA!
I think we should change the Pledge of Allegiance. The “under God” was only added in 1954. How about:
I pledge allegiance to the republic of the United States of America, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
That has a familiar ring to it, removes the irreligious idolatry, separates church from state, is shorter and is more meaningful.
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That still doesn’t remove all of the “irreligious idolatry,” RMM. Some folks (JWs for instance) hold that pledging allegiance to a nation is idolatry also. (Or at least akin to idolatry.)
Sure. JayDubs believe that pledging allegiance to anything besides God is an affront to God.
Whereas I feel that jingoism is short-sighted and immature in the extreme and place my first allegiance with homo sap. YMMV, of course.
-andros-
Rousseau:
So the symbol is more vital than the principle it represents?
Couldn’t we have saved a lot of lives in WWII by just burning all the Nazi flags?
Absolutely, Lib. Their whole government would have fallen overnight. Yeah, that’s the ticket . . . :rolleyes:
And in this country, an individual has the right to promote their ignorance, ego and shortsightedness.
Yer pal,
Satan
I suppose loyalty to a country might be against someone’s religion. Which religions are we talking about here? There are a lot of people who object to the “indivisible” part, too.
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Re:the main topic, it should not be illegal to burn the American (or any other) flag. It is true that the proper way to dispose of a flag IS to burn it. This legal loophole would make inforcing a law impossible and the likelyhood of an amendment low.
Most important, there does not seem to have been a rash of flag burnings in the U.S. Whenever someone reports an alleged burning, it is usually a ploy to draw media attention to their cause and no actual burning takes place.
I have to add that I do respect the people that have served and are currently serving are country. I should also add the American flag that I purchased for $1 at a garage sale makes a good futon cover.
The two that come to my mind are Christian and Jewish.
I will not pledge my allegiance to a flag, nor will I recite the “Pledge of Allegiance” after honestly giving thought to what it was saying.
You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a victor without having victims. -Harriet Woods-
Edlyn
But what if the pledge were changed as above?
Is an allegiance to a country “sacreligous” (nevermind the flag issue)? For which religions, and what is the basis for the objection.
.
Back to basics here. The U.S flag is the symbol of the U.S. and what it stands for. The U.S. stands for democratic republicanism, individual rights (freedom of speech, religion, etc.), the right to own property, the rule of law, etc. Previous posters have made it clear that individuals, in order to show their dislike of one of the tenets of the U.S., are free to burn its symbol as a form of political expression.
So, go on, guys, burn that symbol and show what you think of Constitutional Democratic Republicanism! The rest of us are going to consider you a bunch of crackpots and are free to respond to you through legal means (such as calling you “assholes”) Flag-burning is pathetic, anyway, since it’s “preaching to the choir”…the only people you’re going to convince by doing that were on your side already, and anybody who wasn’t on your side before you torched Old Glory is likely to be miffed.
Hey, I’m pretty liberal and am willing to listen to folks protesting that things aren’t the way they should be. Those protesting folks may even be right. But protestors’ torching the flag is going to make an enemy out of me, since I see it as the symbol of the bases of our society. And if you react in a violent manner toward the basic symbol of American political society, chances are that your proposals to improve it aren’t too constructive.
I might remind previous posters that burning someone in effigy on his front lawn is likely to result in criminal charges including trespassing, causing a criminal nuisance, making terroristic threats, and if the PA decides to make an example of you, arson.
By the way, in Spain it is against the law to burn the Spanish flag. It comes to court occassionally, since often the radical protestor who has done it has also done 15 other illegal things.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to share the libertarian view.
All rights are property rights, and that is no different with respect to the flag. Whether you may burn a flag depends entirely on whether it’s your flag and whether you’re burning it on your property.
It is really spooky to hear people talk about “The Flag”, as though there is only one, as though it is a rights bearing entity, as though the rights of the people are subservient to the rights of The Flag.
If you consecrate The Flag as a symbol of freedom, then you desecrate the very freedom it purports to represent. If you sanctify the symbol, then you profane the principle.
That’s why God doesn’t like idols.
Listen to me now and believe me later. The flag is a, nay, THE symbol of national pride. In my eyes, disrespect shown to the flag is disrespect shown to:
- The principles that this country stands for (freedom, democracy, etc)
- Everyone who has fought and died to uphold those principles, not to mention your own safety and security.
This is true, however:
The principals that those who died fought to uphold include the right to express a political opinion. Should burning the flag be outlawed? Saying “The USA sucks” in public be outlawed? Should saying “The President Sucks” in public be outlawed? Should saying “The Constitution sucks” in public be outlawed?
The answer to all of these questions is no, because they are all the same question. Like it or not, Americans have the right to express themselves pretty much as they please. If somebody buys a piece of cloth which happens to have the flag on it and decides to burn it in a place or setting where it is legal to do so then they have the right to do this. Why? Because we live under the US Constitution. The Constitution is what makes America great. The fact that we have the right to burn our flag makes America great.
You want antiflag-burning laws? Move to Cuba. Move to Iraq. Antiflag-burning laws are an insult to America and an insult to the Constitution.
The best way to stop flag burning is to ignore those who do it. They do it to get your attention.
“Shoplifting is a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.” -Nelson Muntz.
The flag is a symbol, a visible emblem to the people of the unity of our nation. That unity transcends our bickering politics, and our cherished self interests, and our differences. It is not a symbol of any small portion of the people, or of the government, it is a symbol of the entire nation. The importance of the symbol is not in its physical being, but in the abstraction for which the physical cloth is emblematic. One cannot attack the symbol, without making a statement about the whole of what it represents.
I have served this nation, and made a solemn promise to uphold and defend the Constitution which created it. The flag was there, when I made that promise, and I faced it, at the time. I did not promise allegiance to, nor service in defense of the flag. I made my allegiance to the Constitution, as has every other person ever inducted, or inaugurated into the service of the nation. That promise is binding upon me, now, even though the term of service under which I made it has long expired. I shall preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign, and domestic.
Not too long ago, the Congress of the United States made a law abridging the rights of Americans, in violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution, by creating criminal penalties for acts which Congress deemed disrespectful to the flag. After so many years without participating in the active defense of my Constitution, I was compelled to act. With tears in my eyes, and much distress in my heart, I went out into my yard, and burned the flag of my own nation. The Supreme Court upheld the legality of my act. (Not specifically, mind you, but in kind, made clear by precedent.)
There was never a time, in all my very active radical political career before this that I felt compelled to burn a flag. I cannot claim never to have violated the statutes of the Nation, but that act, the purely advisory declaration of how one should treat the flag, I did obey. My civil disobedience came not from contempt for the flag, nor for the nation, but out of outrage at the political misuse of the symbol, and Congress’s disdain for the founding principles of the Constitution.
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“There is nothing in this world that I am prouder of than my ability to feel, to survive and, yes, to be a fool for what I love and believe in.”
– Jodie Foster