LDS theology questions thread

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Thanks, Tom, for working so hard to keep this thread civil and on-topic.

The reason that I am not participating on the other thread, or in any other screaming matches, is that no one is particularly interested in actually discussing the issues or listening to anything I have to say. Screaming and shouting is not all that interesting to me; I’ve had plenty, and I’ve heard all the objections. You’re not telling me anything new, I promise.

And I think I’ve mentioned that I’m on a family visit and don’t have much time to address the serious questions I’ve been asked. If someone wanted to actually engage in a discussion about archaeology, I would have to put it off to another time anyway, because it’s two days before Christmas and my in-laws will be here in a little while (we are at my BIL’s house). And it’s been awhile since I’ve read up on the latest news; my books are at home, where I am not. Not that anyone wants to hear about them anyhow.

So; I’m more than happy to try to help people understand LDS theological thought. I’m not interested in screaming or pile-ons today. You could always go back and look up my posts from years past or search up some Mormon threads; we’ve covered it before, at great length and tedium.

And lastly, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have no race or color that I know of. As glorified beings, they are a bit different than that. Christ was, of course, Jewish in mortal life, and presumably looked it.
[/QUOTE]

But if Jesus and God the Father have physical bodies (your words, not mine), they must be covered with skin. Or how does one have a physical body without skin?

Secondly, I have a number of questions to ask you on the other thread, but since you refuse to go there, I guess my questions will remain unanswered.

I do have one question, but I have no idea if Tomndeb will consider it theological or not. But here goes. As a gay person, I know that the vast majority of Mormons believe in the criminalization of my sex life, although the Utah sodomy statutes were struck down by the US supreme court along with all the other similar state laws a couple of years ago. I live with a partner of 30 years. We just got legally married here in Canada. I just wondered, dangermom, if my partner and I were to visit Utah and if the soomy statutes were still in force, what prison would you and your fellow Mormons like to see us incarcerated in?

BTW, I would never ask that Mormons be jailed. Respect is supoposed to be a two-way street.

62

[QUOTE=Musicat]
tomndebb, dangermom, I see a theological problem here. On the one hand, you believe the docs are “God’s plan”, yet you don’t believe the source of these docs is relevant or provable. Doesn’t that mean your theological base is pretty shaky?
[/quote]
Well, we believe that this book was preserved by miraculous means. If it is true, then there is no way that Joseph Smith could have gotten hold of it or translated it except by divine help. Thus, if one has a testimony of the Book of Mormon and its origins (which would be a witness given by the Holy Ghost), then one believes it and lives by its teachings. Essentially, we believe in the truthfulness of something (any spritual principle, in fact) when we receive revelation confirming it.

Now, the completely miraculous nature of the translation of the BoM means that physical evidence proving the book to be true beyond any doubt would also be proof of miracles, angles, God, Christ, and the truth claims of the LDS Church, I think. Since God never forces himself upon us, this would result in a problem, as we see it. Therefore, most Mormons do not expect to find proof of the BoM anytime soon, though many do take an interest in Mesoamerican archaeology and so on.

Nothing has to be accepted without a witness; this is a basic tenet of LDS thought. Joseph Smith was always telling people not to take his word for anything; go ask God and find out the truth for yourself. The basic principle is that you “study it out in your mind,” come to some sort of a conclusion, and ask in prayer for whether you are right–or ask for help, or whatever. You have to study about it first–God gave us brains for a reason–and you have to be willing to face the answer when you get it. This is true for any spiritual principle, as I said; we expect to go through a similar process with anything.

So, if you handed me The Celestine Prophecies* or something, and told me that you had found it to be a book containing truth, my job would be to read it carefully, decide what I thought about it, and run my conclusion by the Holy Ghost for confirmation (or not). Likewise, if the current prophet of the LDS Church says something unusual that I don’t understand, I would do pretty much the same thing–except that I already have a long record of listening to the prophet and finding his words good.

So I hope the above explanation helps you understand that we are not expected to accept anything without looking at it first. For myself, I did grow up with it, but that doesn’t explain why my parents, whi did not, both found it compelling. And I eventually had to make my own decision about it; a Mormon without a personal belief is not a Mormon who will last very long. Of course I agree that a truly divinely inspired work has more bearing on theology than a book of stories. I hope you now understand something of why Mormons don’t think the BoM (or our other scriptures) is a book of stories.

63

[QUOTE=dangermom]
So, if you handed me The Celestine Prophecies* or something, and told me that you had found it to be a book containing truth, my job would be to read it carefully, decide what I thought about it, and run my conclusion by the Holy Ghost for confirmation (or not). Likewise, if the current prophet of the LDS Church says something unusual that I don’t understand, I would do pretty much the same thing–except that I already have a long record of listening to the prophet and finding his words good.
So I hope the above explanation helps you understand that we are not expected to accept anything without looking at it first.
[/QUOTE]
My apologies for what will be a slightly mean question; It doesn’t really strike me as getting to decide for yourself if you have to run it by the being (or one of the beings) behind something. I get from the believer’s perspective that the HG is the embodiment of truth, but it does seem kinda odd. I mean… if you were offered a deal, and relied upon the opinion of another person, even a very wise or perfect person, that doesn’t seem like getting to decide for yourself. I mean, assuming that your belief is absolutely correct, then it would still be forcing you into making the right decision.

64

I have no idea if this meets Tom’s standards of “theological”. If not, please move it to the other active thread about Mormonism.

I would highly recommend the site called Mentoring by Former Latter-day Saints (Mormons) | Institute for Religious Research . It is run by a group called Mormons in Transition, former Mormons who act as mentors to other LDS who want to leave their church.

There are very interesting references and articles including information about the oddly inconsistent nature of Joseph Smith’s visions, the rejection of any BofM validity by organizations like the National Geographic Society and the Smithonian Institute, etc.

It also lists inherent contradictions between the BofM and the Bible (that strikes ME as theological, but you never know around the GD Board :dubious:

Come to think of it, since this thread is apparently meant for us to sit at the feet of dangermom and listen to her doctrines without challenging them with scientific facts, I guess this posting may end up being moved to the other thread. Or supressed by the moderator.

65

I guess I can’t let this one go by for too long, so I’m going to skip poor Sapo again for a moment.
[QUOTE=Valteron]
But if Jesus and God the Father have physical bodies (your words, not mine), they must be covered with skin. Or how does one have a physical body without skin?
[/quote]
They’re glorified. People can’t look at them or be in their presence without being incinerated. By the few reports of visions, they are so filled with light that they can barely be seen even then. So, if they have a color, it is “somewhat brighter than the sun.” I suppose. I’ve never given their race any thought.

I hope you don’t really think that Mormons actually wish to criminalize homosexuality and put you in jail. No one wants to put you in prison at all. You are perfectly free to live your life as you wish. If you happened to believe in the LDS Church and wanted to live by its teachings, you would be expected to live by the same rules about extra-marital sex as everyone is. Which is why it is perfectly understandable to many Mormons that gay people often leave; it’s quite a difficult thing to ask, and it’s generally considered a lot more sympathetically than straight ex-LDS people who live together. But the many LDS people I know who have gay friends and relatives do not hate them (indeed, I’m sitting the home of my SIL, whose favorite brother is gay). Congratulations on your marriage.

Here is a comment from President Hinckley in 1999: “Nevertheless, and I emphasize this, I wish to say that our opposition to attempts to legalize same-sex marriage should never be interpreted as justification for hatred, intolerance, or abuse of those who profess homosexual tendencies, either individually or as a group. As I said from this pulpit one year ago, our hearts reach out to those who refer to themselves as gays and lesbians. We love and honor them as sons and daughters of God. They are welcome in the Church. It is expected, however, that they follow the same God-given rules of conduct that apply to everyone else, whether single or married.”

66

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
My apologies for what will be a slightly mean question; It doesn’t really strike me as getting to decide for yourself if you have to run it by the being (or one of the beings) behind something. I get from the believer’s perspective that the HG is the embodiment of truth, but it does seem kinda odd. I mean… if you were offered a deal, and relied upon the opinion of another person, even a very wise or perfect person, that doesn’t seem like getting to decide for yourself. I mean, assuming that your belief is absolutely correct, then it would still be forcing you into making the right decision.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree. I can still choose to do whatever I please. I don’t even have to ask for ‘approval’ if I don’t want to–though IME things go better when I do. If I consider the Holy Spirit to be capable of giving me truth, then I don’t see how I’m subjecting myself to an opinion so much as a standard.

For example, if I were doing math homework, and I wanted to work out a problem in a particular way, I could do that. But if I ask the teacher whether it’s a good way to work out the problem, and she says no (because I’m adding when I should subract, say), I can still choose whether to use my method or not. It won’t necessarily get me a workable answer, but I can choose to do that and get it wrong. And if I decide that I don’t like the results of my way after all, I can still ask the teacher for help–but I don’t have to. I just might not get to be a mathematician when I grow up if I refuse to do math according to the standard.

67

[QUOTE=dangermom]
I disagree. I can still choose to do whatever I please. I don’t even have to ask for ‘approval’ if I don’t want to–though IME things go better when I do. If I consider the Holy Spirit to be capable of giving me truth, then I don’t see how I’m subjecting myself to an opinion so much as a standard.

For example, if I were doing math homework, and I wanted to work out a problem in a particular way, I could do that. But if I ask the teacher whether it’s a good way to work out the problem, and she says no (because I’m adding when I should subract, say), I can still choose whether to use my method or not. It won’t necessarily get me a workable answer, but I can choose to do that and get it wrong. And if I decide that I don’t like the results of my way after all, I can still ask the teacher for help–but I don’t have to. I just might not get to be a mathematician when I grow up if I refuse to do math according to the standard.
[/QUOTE]
I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think I see it the same way. If you use your method for math homework, and find a way you think works, but your teacher disagrees, you certainly have the choice to stick with your method or change it. And if you change it because you then go back and reason it out yourself, and decide that the teacher was in fact right and your original method was wrong, that’d be fine. But if you go with the teacher’s method just because they’re the teacher and you trust them, you’d be letting them make the decision for you.

So if the HG says you’re wrong on something, this is the right way, and you go back and reason on it yourself, that’d be a free choice. And if you reasoned it out and still disagree, as you said, that’d be a free choice. But if you took the HG’s word for it because they’re the HG, you’re giving up your free choice for it (is that the right pronoun) to decide. Of course, I can’t speak for you on this, so it may be you do reason it out for yourself.

68

Poor Sapo! It’s his (her?) turn now.

Are you asking about the classic “faith vs. works” issue? Or a little bit different?

Mormons don’t place a lot of importance on exactly what you were doing when you died–a deathbed repentance is not worth much. The important thing is the character you’ve been shaping for your whole life. Here is a relevant scripture:

What that means, is if you know the truth, you can’t just leave for a while and then repent after you die, or right before you die. You’ve been shaping your character this whole time, and you can’t change it willy-nilly–it takes work, and that work isn’t easier in the next life. (Of course, if you didn’t know any truth, it’s a bit different, which I can explain too if you like.)

Anyhow, what the LDS Church expects from members is that we make covenants with knowledge of what we are promising, and then we do our best to keep those covenants and keep moving forward and learning. Naturally, being human, we break our promises all the time; we cannot achieve perfection in this life and we can’t not sin. So we have to keep repenting, keep renewing our covenants, and “endure to the end”–you just keep getting back on the horse. The Atonement is what makes that possible.

Repentance consists of acknowledging a sin, apologizing and making restitution if possible, taking any consequences with a good heart, praying for forgiveness, and doing your best to change and not repeat it. Very serious sins (generally crimes, abuse, adultery and so on) require confession to a bishop so that he can help you go through this process well.

When it comes to faith vs. works, we find it (with many others) to be a pointless question. It’s both, like a pair of scissor blades (I think I stole that from C. S. Lewis). Faith alone with no action isn’t much; action alone with no faith can’t get you far.

Does this help, or did I misunderstand the question?

69

[QUOTE=Valteron]
As a gay person, I know that the vast majority of Mormons believe in the criminalization of my sex life, although the Utah sodomy statutes were struck down by the US supreme court along with all the other similar state laws a couple of years ago. I live with a partner of 30 years. We just got legally married here in Canada. I just wondered, dangermom, if my partner and I were to visit Utah and if the soomy statutes were still in force, what prison would you and your fellow Mormons like to see us incarcerated in?

BTW, I would never ask that Mormons be jailed. Respect is supoposed to be a two-way street.
[/QUOTE]

(emphasis mine)

Dude, just speaking as a lurker here, and I hope you understand I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I’ve about lost all respect for you.

You want to get in a pissing match because you don’t want a discussion to continue? Fine.

You want to put words in my mouth and the mouths of countless other Mormons you’ve never met? Fine.

Just don’t go whining about losing respect after shitting all over someone else. Please, just go grind your axe somewhere else.

70

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
(emphasis mine)

Dude, just speaking as a lurker here, and I hope you understand I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I’ve about lost all respect for you.

You want to get in a pissing match because you don’t want a discussion to continue? Fine.

You want to put words in my mouth and the mouths of countless other Mormons you’ve never met? Fine.

Just don’t go whining about losing respect after shitting all over someone else. Please, just go grind your axe somewhere else.
[/QUOTE]

Where better for Valteron to bring up these [legitimate] points than a thread called LDS theology questions thread in a forum called Great Debates?

Why all the default respect for this quackery when there are plenty of people and lifestyles that Mormons and other theists don’t respect?

71

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think I see it the same way. If you use your method for math homework, and find a way you think works, but your teacher disagrees, you certainly have the choice to stick with your method or change it. And if you change it because you then go back and reason it out yourself, and decide that the teacher was in fact right and your original method was wrong, that’d be fine. But if you go with the teacher’s method just because they’re the teacher and you trust them, you’d be letting them make the decision for you.

So if the HG says you’re wrong on something, this is the right way, and you go back and reason on it yourself, that’d be a free choice. And if you reasoned it out and still disagree, as you said, that’d be a free choice. But if you took the HG’s word for it because they’re the HG, you’re giving up your free choice for it (is that the right pronoun) to decide. Of course, I can’t speak for you on this, so it may be you do reason it out for yourself.
[/QUOTE]
Well, on the whole, the rule is that you have to go back and think it out again if you don’t get it right the first time. You don’t actually get a lot of easy breaks in this system. But of course, there are times when you just know what the right thing to do is. Then you just have to choose whether or not to do it. Obedience to the will of God (though with knowledge) is considered a virtue, and sometimes we have to do it with faith–not knowing why option X is the best one at the moment that we do it. But, generally speaking, I would say that the Holy Ghost doesn’t give you a lot of free rides, and you always have a choice as to what you’re going to do.

72

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Well, on the whole, the rule is that you have to go back and think it out again if you don’t get it right the first time.
[/quote]

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Obedience to the will of God (though with knowledge) is considered a virtue, and sometimes we have to do it with faith–not knowing why option X is the best one at the moment that we do it.
[/QUOTE]
These two points seem to be in conflict. Could you clarify which takes “priority” - obedience to God versus doing your own reasoning?

I’d just like to point out that i’m not saying following the HG is wrong. I’m just saying that to me it seems like there is a certain point at which you’re expected to just trust the HG, which - while i’m not saying that’s a bad thing - does take the decision out of your hands.

73

Hey, dangermom, I’m not CoJCoLDS, but I just wanted to let you know I’m really enjoying your explanations of its tenets.

I’m Episcopalian myself, and Lord knows we’ve been getting some bashing from the fundamentalists lately!

74

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Where better for Valteron to bring up these [legitimate] points than a thread called LDS theology questions thread in a forum called Great Debates?
[/QUOTE]

I believe tomndebb made a worthy suggestion a while ago. But whatever. My main criticism of Valertron, and now you, is for putting words in my mouth…

…then getting all huffy about what you say we believe.

Straw man, Cisco. And it’s getting mighty boring.

We’re all individuals. No one’s bothered asking me whether I respected gays and rights to marriage before slandering my beliefs. I certainly know a large number of Mormons in Utah and elsewhere - maybe more than 50% of those I know - who don’t believe the way you say they do. We certainly were not, and any time, instructed by church leaders to disrespect you (or anyone else for that matter) based on your choices. We are in fact taught to respect everyone, and make choices for ourselves.

I don’t give a shit about your relationship with your husband. (On the other hand, I might feel better about it if it’s presented in a less pissy way - you seem to swing it around it like a weapon.) It is sad that you had to leave the contry to get married, sure. I voted against the gay marriage ban in Texas, by the way. I voted this way because, based on my heritage and my faith, I KNOW how much it sucks to be driven out of the country because of your beliefs.

And I don’t feel that my beliefs are in any way contrary to the teachings of my faith. One of the cardinal rules of our religion is the concept of free will, of making choices for yourself. I think this is what dangermom’s said a couple of times already, had you been paying attention.

I’m not going to try to take you to task for beliefs you have which seem icky to me. Your beliefs don’t affect me. You and some others feel compelled to pick on my beliefs, beliefs which have no impact on you, because these beliefs seem wrong to you. For the life of me I just don’t get why.

75

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
We certainly were not, and any time…
[/QUOTE]

:smack:

We certainly were not, at any time…

Carry on.

76

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
My main criticism of Valertron, and now you, is for putting words in my mouth…
…then getting all huffy about what you say we believe.

Straw man, Cisco. And it’s getting mighty boring.
[/quote]

Excuse me, pal, I don’t think so. YOU just put words in MY mouth and created a straw man.

Maybe because I haven’t said one word about you and I don’t care what kind of personal spin you put on your popular faith?

So you’re saying that close to 50% of the Mormons that you personally know are disrespectful of others’ beliefs and lifestyles, but you’re mad at me for bringing that up?

Wait, you’re mad at me for “putting words into your mouth” (cite?), but then you just assume I’m gay? I’m happily married to a beautiful woman thank you very much.

Had to throw that jab in there, huh?

Your beliefs - theological beliefs in general - unfortunately, affect billions.

77

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Wait, you’re mad at me for “putting words into your mouth” (cite?)
[/QUOTE]

cite:

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Why all the default respect for this quackery when there are plenty of people and lifestyles that Mormons and other theists don’t respect?
[/QUOTE]

Mormons and other theists, I assume, includes everyone who belongs to a religion or who holds any kind of faith. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

If my understanding is correct, then you’re saying that I disrespect “plenty of people and lifestyles.”

This, to me, is putting words in my mouth.

:eek: :smack: WHOOPS.

Massive foot-in-mouth. I had intended that bit towards Valertron, who mentioned the troubles he had in getting married, then proceeded to blame it all on me and the other Religionists. Please accept my apologies.

78

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet
Massive foot-in-mouth. I had intended that bit towards Valertron, who mentioned the troubles he had in getting married, then proceeded to blame it all on me and the other Religionists. Please accept my apologies.[/QUOTE]

I never said I had trouble getting married. I live in Canada where same-sex marriage is 100% legal everywhere. My partner and I got married last March. Very lovely ceremony attended by his 87-year-old mother among others.

No doubt there are a few liberal-minded Mormons who are not homophobic. Maybe you are one of them. But the fact remains that Utah did not decriminalize gay sex until all the sodomy laws were struck down by the supreme court a couple of years ago.

So obviously, a majority of Mormons would like to see me and my partner put in jail if we have sex in Utah. My partner and I have never proposed that Mormons be jailed here in Canada. Nor has any gay person I have ever met anywhere in the world proposed that.

The LDS Chuch as a whole continues to oppose same-sex marriage. I and other gay perple have never proposed any denial of rights or equality to Mormons.

It is that simple, Subway! Mormonism is one of the many religions that practice homophobic bigotry.

79

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
We certainly were not, and any time, instructed by church leaders to disrespect you (or anyone else for that matter) based on your choices. We are in fact taught to respect everyone, and make choices for ourselves.

[/QUOTE]

Gee Subway, when did you choose to become a straight guy? Did they offer you a free toaster oven like the gay recruiters offer us if we sign on the dotted line and choose to become gay? Excepot when we recruit your kids. We find it is better to offer them IPods.

That of course is the “escape clause” of homophobic churches the world over. “We do not hate or disrespect you, it is your actions that are sinful. You we love! But we will fight to oppose protection of the civil rights of gays and lesbians and we will fight against your rights to marry. But golly gee, we have nothing against you.”

Subway, have you taken a look at the LDS official position on gay rights and same-sex marriage?

80

[QUOTE=Subway Prophet]
cite:

Mormons and other theists, I assume, includes everyone who belongs to a religion or who holds any kind of faith. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

If my understanding is correct, then you’re saying that I disrespect “plenty of people and lifestyles.”

This, to me, is putting words in my mouth.
[/QUOTE]

And that, to me, is a straw man. I never said one word about you; I was speaking in general terms about theism and more specifically about Mormonism. Yes, there are open-minded people in nearly every category you could possibly group people into, but the fact is that a great many theists are not. As much as 50% by your own admission - which I happen to think is a gross underestimate but is probably not provable one way or another so it’s not really worth arguing.

It is not necessary to name each individual on the Jamaican bobsledding team when you say, in general, Jamaicans do not bobsled.