Man, if I ever take a relationship so hard I can’t look a French fry in the face for the rest of my life, I promise to take a class on “Perspective,” and I don’t mean ‘perspective’ as found in art.
That said, and noting the inherent dangers in gross generalizations – you Posters are all so touchy! – I will say this:
I went to France as a sixteen-year-old on the classic five-countries-in-three-weeks tour from Hell with my parents and siblings – the proto-typical American family who spoke no language but English. My experience was that the English were cool but unfailingly polite; the Swiss were somewhat warmer and unfailingly polite; the Germans were warm, friendly, and accommodating; and the French were rude, rude, rude. Everywhere. Everyone. If we ever met a French person who was willing to direct us across the street as opposed to into the path of a bus, I don’t remember it – and I think I would, since unfailing rudeness is a pretty remarkable thing in and of itself.
That said, we were really only in two places, Paris and the Riviera, both known for a disdain of tourists that I think probably stems from the fact that those locations are generally inundated with camera-toting visitors. I don’t know that our experience would have been the same in the countryside, or if we had stayed longer, or if we had known some local people to smooth the way. (Though I will note that we didn’t see much countryside, or stay longer, or know locals in any other, friendlier country, either.) The experience did not persuade me that every French person is a supercilious Frog, but it did persuade me that while stereotyping may be ethically indefensible, some stereotypes have a grain of truth in them. I’m sure the stereotype of the “Ugly American” has a grain of truth in it, too, unfortunately.
Now I am surprised indeed. I speak decent French and adequate German, so I can get around well enough on my own in most of western Europe. The time I spent in Switzerland, both in Geneva and in the countryside, was punctuated by unbelievable rudeness, coldness, and a general xenophobia on the part of Swiss natives.
For example, I was visiting a small town renowned for its medieval abbey situated at the top of the town burg. The roads were old, confusing, and difficult to navigate. So I walked up to a Swiss woman and asked her if she was a local. She affirmed, so I inquired about the best way to get to the abbey. I don’t remember with which language I addressed her. So do you know what she says? “What abbey?” Espece d’andouille! I point straight up to the top of the hill in the middle of town. “That abbey.” BTW, the town is named after the abbey. “Oh, I don’t know.” And with that, she walked away.
This kind of treatment was not uncommon for me in Switzerland. For the record, I am a fairly experienced European traveler. I don’t look American, per se, and I usually know enough about where I am going that I don’t act like a typical tourist. But I received the business end of the cold shoulder everywhere I went in Switzerland.
Man, you guys are TOUCHY. You take this far too seriously. The thing about French-bashing is that it’s fun. It is a long-standing part of our cultural tradition, inherited from our British roots, and stretching back to when Washington snuck into a sleeping Lafayette’s tent at Valley Forge and dunked his wrist in warm water.
[Note to matt: I read in The Economist a statement to the effect that France and Quebec get along so well because France pretends Quebec is its own country and in return Quebec pretends France is the center of the world. Perhaps when you said you were Canadian, you were taken for Quebecois.]
I coincidentally happened to read the first three pages of one of Sartre’s books in the bargain bookstore the other day, I forget which one. Three pages of very dense and intellectual prose, but it had a couple of interesting ideas. And yet, and yet, and yet…they were interesting ideas that could have been expressed in about two or three paragraphs of plain language. The damn book was about 120,000 pages long, give or take. There was a dense mist rolling down from the later chapters, and thunderclouds around the index. I wonder how long that book would have been if this guy had been a better writer, as well as a great philosopher.
Okay, It’s not exactly French bashing, but it’s true.
Much as I love disparaging les homme-grenouilles, I feel a little bad because I have a couple of friends who are French and they are really very sweet.
But what the hell. Their countrymen are snail-slurping, nazi-surrendering, greenpeace-bombing, sheep-burning, yeast-piss-sipping, myopia-painting, boring-pretentious-movie-making, soapaphobic, Frogs! So there!
Cripes! Matt, iampunha, get a sense of humor. The OP was funny. True? No. But funny nonetheless, and I doubt that it was intended to be anything but funny.
Am I a better judge of Irish jokes because I’m Irish? Puh-leaze. Humor is humor, no matter who the subject is. Of course, there are some topics which no one can make fun of in good taste (see: Lizard’s nazi statement, to beat a Dead Chipmunk) but no one is above a little stereotypical humor.
Not all blondes are dumb. Not all Irish are drunks. Not all Frenchmen are rude. But it’s so much more fun if we pretend they are. Besides, we’re not hurting anyone because no one really believes any of the above. And if they do, they’re probably an idiot who believes countless other stupid things, and would be hard to convince otherwise.
In other words, lighten up or suck it up. This is the Pit for cripes sake.
Ah, but humor that runs in a slightly more rant-like grain belongs here. Or are you suggesting that he shouldn’t post humor in the Pit? Furthermore, are you suggesting that you wouldn’t have objected if he had posted it in the Pit? I find that hard to believe.
No; I reject the prejudicial implications of this thread, and I reject your attempt to justify them by saying oh, it’s only the Pit. Pit or not, I am gonna be irritated by this sort of thing; this being the Pit, I am gonna express the same.
When I saw the BBQ pit, I knew I had to register, and when I saw a thread about abusing the French, I knew I had to post. INHO, all right thinking people (including myself, of course) should not let their prejudices affect their rational judgements. That doesn’t exactly make sense, but I’m sure the point comes across. The only French person I actually know is very nice, and I’d never let her know how I feel about the French in general. However, I also believe that to take a prejudice into account, I must know what that prejudice is, so here goes.
Until I was nine, I was aware of no prejudices. Then I went on a family holiday that involved 3 days in New Caledonia, followed by 7 days in Vanuatu. In New Caledonia, those with darker skin appeared to have learned to keep thier mouths shut and thier eyes downcast, those with paler skin, like my own, switched from friendly to downright hostile as soon as any of my family spoke, and the streets looked like they had been used as rubbish dumps. When we went to Vanuatu (which had gained independence from the French only 3 months previously) the people were universally friendly, the place was basically tidier, and the effect on me was marked, to say the least. The way I saw it, that experience was a pretty good before/after type contrast. So…
The French are smelly, arrogant, and shit scared of anything they can’t actually step on. Americans are just plain dumb, oh, thats right, and arrogant. And Australians would be almost as good as us Kiwis if they only had twice the intelligence (which would give them half of ours). On the other hand, Canadians are really cool (I’ve seen Due South) because they’re not Yanks. Israelis are cool,'cause they kick arse. Scots and Irish and Welsh are cool, because, well, they just are. If I hadn’t read P.J.O’Rourke and Heinlein, I wouldn’t believe that the U.S. of A. had a single pair of neurons to rub together.
Oh, and I’ve heard that Australians like to make jokes about Kiwis screwing sheep, and I’ve come to the conclusion that that is because it doesn’t occur to them that anything else could be done with a farm animal.
Just my 2 cents worth.
As a Brit with German connections, may I briefly leave the obscurity of lurking-land to say that I thoroughly approve of anyone and everyone wallopping the Frogs as a nation - selfish, cynical, dick-headed two-faced arseholes!
But individually they can be quite charming, if you remember to count your fingers after shaking hands with one.
And now back to the shadows, flooding the Channel Tunnel as I go
Freak, much as I respect your opinions, I don’t find gross generalisations about entire nations funny. I didn’t find the “I hate Japan” thread funny, and neither did I find this one funny. Would it be equally okay to label all black people as the OP here does?
The OP didn’t talk about individuals, but rather about the France as a collective. A lot like when I said I hated America. It’s not criticizing a race so much as it’s criticizing an organization of people.
If I were to criticize the NAACP, I wouldn’t be criticizing the black race.
BTW, I can’t help but notice that you guys don’t object nearly so strongly when people make broad generalizations about tourists and Americans.
I nearly forgot: there’s a world of difference with criticism based on something ‘relevant’ (for want of a better word). If you criticised the NAACP for, say, hampering race relations (purely hypothetical example), that’s one thing, but to criticise NAACP member for having bad teeth and drooling - well, I’d certainly be uncomfortable with that. Maybe I’m mostly uncomfortable because I don’t like people being negatively characterised because they belong to a group which has no “voluntary” element.
