I think I see some of the problem. From that article:
“I have been so busy packing, unpacking, assembling furniture etc. that I haven’t really found time to hunker down and start (learning French),” she admits. “It was always on my list but (I) just couldn’t find the time.”
I found living in Europe challenging. I was lonely for the first few months. It was hard to get to know people, because the socialization skills I had developed in America didn’t work. I didn’t really enjoy my time in Wales in a lot of ways, especially the first year. I was incredibly frustrated by the food situation, as well. But once I learned what to expect, how to interact, and my language skills improved, I had a vastly different experience. You’ve 100% got to prioritize language, and you’ve got to meet the local culture where it is.
OTOH, Canada might be much less challenging because of similarities of culture and language (at least, outside Quebec). I posted this before but it’s such a lovely story. We don’t have a follow-on to how things subsequently worked out for them, but with the ravages of Trump 2.0 I’m sure they’re happier than ever that they made the move. And …
I suspect that’s the rub. As long as you are paying rent, utilities and listing it as your place of residency for tax purposes it could be hard to at least casually prove you weren’t using it as a primary residence. Especially if (as with this couple) one of them had been there ~40 years and typically spent months at a time elsewhere every year. You’d probably have to literally stake out that place for over a year to be able to document non-residency. Which some SF landlords just might do if they could recoup 40 years of rent control and revert to market rates ! But it would take some doing.
This is why i don’t think i could thrive anywhere that isn’t predominantly English-speaking. My language skills suck. I’ve attempted to learn several languages, with little success, especially spoken language. Maybe, maybe, i could manage another Germanic language.
That’s unfortunately becoming not really the case here in the UK now; it’s been the case for a while that to sponsor your partner for a spouse visa you had to have some income or savings. The income level used to be around or below the annual pay for a full-time minimum wage job, so it wasn’t much of a hurdle- and there were some exceptions in case of exceptional circumstances.
Recently it’s been increased by about 35%, so lower-paid full-time workers no longer qualify. For a while there was a proposed increase to a level so high that in some areas, including I think the area I live- it would actually be over the median annual income. This does seem to have been quietly dropped, but there’s been no talk of reducing the increase already made.
Bear in mind that a sponsor would need to be getting that income solo, as a spouse would not be able to work or stay in the country (if they weren’t already present on another visa) without the visa. Especially tricky if the citizen isn’t resident when the relationship starts…
Japan also has the requirement that the couple shows they can support themselves but there isn’t a minimum level of income. Also, the foreign spouse can be the main source of income.
Japan offers several different lengths of validity for spouse visas, 5 years, 3 years, 1 year and 6 months.
When I applied for a spouse visa with my (now ex-) wife, I had a job lined up and my FIL guaranteed us as well. I was given a five year visa from the start while other people often get the shorter ones.
Happier or not, they’re not together anymore. I found this podcast (divorce comes up around 11:20 and backstory that confirms it’s the husband in the article begins around 14:00):
What a shame, but a great job of research by you! From the notation at the bottom of the article, he’s still in Halifax, but according to this article his cute ex-wife Heather moved back to Arkansas and is now facing (I don’t know how else to put it) the prospect of living in Arkansas. There is no word on where the dog Kingsley chose to live. I’d love to hear similar reflections from Heather. Yes, divorces happen even in Canada, but at least you don’t get deported to El Salvador by ICE thugs. The only “ice” we have here occurs in the winter and it’s not a problem if you have winter tires!
I hate it when reality intrudes on a happy story. As a maritime island Nova Scotia is somewhat isolated but very beautiful. But obviously not idyllically conducive to a perfect marriage.
More likely it’s because NYC is a finance, tech, and media hub that produces something like 5-10% of the US economy.
But the real reason is anywhere is awesome if you’re rich (particularly NYC) and people are mostly full of shit.
People who move out of New York are people like me (or more specifically a couple I’m friends with who moved to NC). For all her posturing about how much she loves NY and wanting to play the part of an executive’s SAHM pseudo-socialite wife, they seem much more comfortable in NC where they have more space, closer to family, around more like-minded people, and can be more of a big fish in a much smaller pond. As opposed to keeping up with the Jones’s in Manhattan, renting a penthouse in Spanish Harlem (technically still the Upper East Side).
IOW, the exodus from NYC is more of a constant migration of 30 and 40-somethings who get to a point where they are raising a family, don’t have to or money to enjoy most of the perks of living in NYC and decide they can due IT or back-office finance bullshit anywhere else.
Same thing for leaving the USA. I know people who have family ties and duel citizenship in places like Ireland, Canada, Japan, or Greece. So for them it might be as simple as me moving my family to Pittsburgh. But for me or most people I imagine, it’s not all that simple to just up and move to a new country where you don’t know anyone, have no cultural or social ties, have to find a job with no professional network, and then maybe they have just as much stupid political bullshit that you are trying to get away from here in the US.
“America is my home,” she said. “Yes, America is currently a dumpster fire, but it’s my dumpster fire and I love it.”
That’s pretty much my sentiment, having spent several years abroad during my time in the Navy (6 in all, not counting several months at sea while homeported in the US—I am going specifically off time during which I was permanently stationed abroad and so accrued time towards the Overseas Service Ribbon, rather than merely the Sea Service Deployment Ribbon).
That said, I respect that for others, particularly those who are not white, male, non-hispanic, cisgendered, &etc, the calculus will be different. But as an immigration lawyer here in the US, helping people leave the US is kind of the opposite of what I do. So maybe I’m biased.
Even I have a client (a disabled veteran who was recently homeless and living in a shelter) who has transitioned from “I want to get my immigration status sorted out and become a US citizen” to “I want to get my birth certificate and apply for a passport from [western European country of birth prior to being adopted by a couple of assholes from America and then abandoned in the US while still a child] so I can get the hell out of this country and go somewhere where maybe they will treat me better.” And I can’t say that he’s wrong in light of various obstacles he has faced and will continue to face in the US (albeit partly because of his status as a non-citizen).
Anyway, I just think that not only is emigrating from the US easier said than done for the vast majority of people within marginalized groups (my experience as an immigration attorney has helped me to conclude it’s at least within an order of magnitude and often of comparable difficulty to or harder than immigrating to the US, especially if you don’t have money and privilege enough already), but that other countries aren’t exactly immune from the sort of bigotry we have in the US. And it’s often actually worse. I’ve shared this before, but I’ll share it again: not only have I actually been denied entry to an establishment on account if my race while overseas, but it was actually viewed as practically quaint and not nearly so shameful a practice as we would view it even in the US. Even white supremacists in the US—the ones who want to be deemed socially acceptable, anyway—will want to at least somewhat thinly veil their racism.
Here and elsewhere in this thread, and similar threads, the subtext often seems to be “it’s just not worth it.” That really depends on the person: it was certainly worth it for me, and having lived abroad in three non-US countries, I have met a lot of other ex-pat and emigrant Americans for whom it was also worth it. With a little planning and some hard work, and the willingness to be less comfortable for about a year, it’s actually pretty feasible. It’s a non-starter for people who are super close to their families and for those beyond a certain point in their careers / lives, but I was around 40 when I left, so certainly possible mid-life.
I did have heritage citizenship, so it was definitely easier, though not quite as simple as relocating to Pittsburgh.
Those both describe me. We looked into it the first time Trump was elected. But we both had ailing mother’s we were responsible for. And we were both old enough that most countries looked at us as a drain on resources, not as productive young workers. Our mother’s have both passed away, but we still have family ties, friends, communities, lack of language skills, and few countries that would actually want us.
I did move from NYC to the burbs when my kids were young. That was partly moving from his home and family to my home and family. And partly following job opportunities, as my employer has gone belly-up.
I think maybe it’s worth doing if you are doing it for experience or career or just because it might be interesting. Obviously working in NYC I know plenty of people from other countries who come here for that.
I just had drinks with a college friend who has basically lived his entire adult life abroad. He pledged our fraternity then almost immediately studied abroad in Spain. Aside from a period living in Manhattan, he’s lived in Switzerland, Germany, Brazil and a few other places. Married a Brazilian-Japanese woman and had some kids. Speaks like half a dozen languages.
My cousin has spent most of her adult life living in China.
A friend of mine recently moved back to the States from South America. He’s a single 40-something “digital nomad” type.
The consensus seems to me there are trade offs. Living abroad can make for an interesting life but you often forgo some of the stability and deep connections of a more stable and permanent life somewhere where you have cultural connections.
My thought is that people who threaten to leave the country because of the political climate, unless you legitimately feel unsafe, are mostly full of shit. And really if you “feel unsafe” move to a different American city or state first and see how you like that.
We’re not going to leave for many of the reasons listed above–elderly family, pets, community, beautiful house we just built. I don’t think I’m physically unsafe–I’m male, white, wealthy and rural, But you never know. I will say this, however: being physically in the US right now is extremely bad for my mental health. Pretty sure I’m not alone.
As for moving overseas…
There’s a huge difference between running away from something, and running towards something. Someone who has good reasons to run towards a specific foreign country, will find it easier . But someone who is just running away, to some mythical foreign country,( i.e. any foreign country will do), will find it much more difficult.
One of the reasons I feel unsafe in the US is because of the health insurance / healthcare situation. Watching loved ones go through it is one of my main reasons for staying out permanently.
And the administration is targeting “liberal” communities. It’s probably okay to be gay in SF or NYC or even the liberal parts of Durham, but it’s pretty risky to be an immigrant, or even a native born Spanish speaker. Or heck, even a native American. ICE has already made Chicago a mess, and it’s coming for other places.
And as a Jew, I’m getting anxious. Not that there are a lot of safe places for Jews.
UK is getting pretty anti-immigrant, i.e. bigoted. Italy is leaning fascist.
That is not the best spot to pick.
Altho people have asked Beck for evidence the USA is still a good place, but compared to Israel it certainly is. Same with a couple other places mentioned.
Yep.
I mean sure Canada is pretty nice, but kinda limited to move there.
! But it would take some doing.