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You (and the other people here) might not define “leaving a child alone” to include situations where you are a few seconds away and where the child is in sight , but how is anyone to know that until you make your definition explicit? Way back in my first post, I asked if it made a difference whether I was walking five feet to a mailbox. Other people have mentioned paying at a gas station. We were pretty obviously reading “leave a child” alone to include those situations, or we wouldn’t have brought up them up.
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Which is why, after reading your responses to my (and others) questions and statements, I THEN came back in and clarified it.
Oh PLEASE, she was doing far from that, the tone of it was short and mild.
She wasn’t trying to get someone to concentrate on the NUMBERS, but on the fact that there IS a percentage (whatever it may be) that says that something could happen, and why, while out in public, take that chance?
She wasn’t doing that though, and she stated that in a reply to your post.
Yes, and I REALIZE that, that is why, in my next reply I posted JUST that, (a circumstance out of many), where a parent would NOT want to leave their child, even as old as 10 or more, alone in a car, out of their sight.
Yeah, well that was then, this is now. I don’t think news coverage was all that lax in the 70s and 80s to where you only HEAR about more heinous crimes happening. Again, a few of us did search for older (70s /80s) statistics, neither of us found any online, but just from the personal experiences of several 40something people here, things DO happen more frequently in this day and age.
I’m not sure where you got from “don’t leave kids of a certain age (whether it be 10 and below or 6 and below) in a car alone” to “protect them from every little thing and don’t even let them visit the park or their friends” but none of the rest of us suggested that kids have to be “protected from every little thing”.
I didn’t think you were all that terribly snippy, you just seemed to not be understanding her post the way she intended it, or mine in the way I intended it.
I hear ya – my three-year-old has been so accustomed to having a parent/grandparent nearby at all times, my wife and I worry that he’ll become too dependent on us. I couldn’t even drop him off at the Children’s Playroom at Ikea, because he started screaming his head off the moment I was on the other side of the glass wall. We’re now starting to wean him off of this worry by sending him to preschool, half-a-day for three days a week, just so he’ll get used to the idea of being somewhere without a parent in the wings.
And shout-outs to stick monkey and Hamadryad, who have a balance between concern and paranoia that makes sense to me.
People have made statements such as any risk is too great, if there’s even a minute chance of danger to my child, I’m going to be too careful and that a six year old shouldn’t be out of an adult’s sight for more than five minutes and under six shouldn’t be out of an adult’s sight at all. Maybe they didn’t really mean that they wouldn’t let their child take a shower because the child might fall and suffer a fatal head injury. Maybe they really didn’t mean that they would never leave their daughter alone with her father because fathers have been known to molest their daughters. Maybe they didn’t really mean that a six year old can’t play in her room while mom is downstairs in the kitchen.Maybe they don’t really mean they won’t allow their child to walk home from school alone in high school because other kids might beat him up. Maybe they really meant that under certain circumstances the risks of leaving a child in a car (or any other risk) outweigh the benefits. A statement that no one would disagree with. But that’s not what they said. The absoluteness of the original statements is where the idea of “protecting from every little thing” comes from. The statement that under certain circumstances, the risks outweigh the benefits allows for the possibility that under other circumstances the benefits may outweigh the risks. Statements that any risk is too great, or that one will be too careful if there is even a minute risk of danger don’t allow for that possibility.
Hi doreen
As the “owner” of the original statement about not leaving 6 year olds alone for more than 5 minutes, etc… let me elaborate:
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[li]I made it clear that adult supervision includes kindergarten/school teachers, responsible older brothers, etc…[/li][li]Perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough that, e.g., letting a youngish child (I’m not giving ages any more) play alone in their room in the house is OK - as long as there is a grownup in the house to come running if child shouts, to hear the door-bell and deal with it, etc… Playing alone on the swings in the park is OK if adult is sitting nearby with nose in book, looking up every few minutes to make sure kid is OK… And leaving child at play area in a mall while you shop is OK if there is an adult supervisor, too… You get the idea.[/li][li]Ages were offered as an example only. That’s what worked and works for me, YMMV, batteries not included… :). My 11 year old is, by now, fully independent, except I won’t let her on public transportation - and even that’s only because we’re living in Israel, and I don’t take the bus myself :(.[/li][/list]
Sorry if I came across as being in the over-protection camp before. My comment was originally made in order to emphasize the point that different kids should be trusted alone or not depending on the situation and on their individual age/personality/responsibility, and neither a blanket “You can’t leave children alone!” nor a blanket “Oh, yes I can!” statement is, IMHO, reasonable
the solution: grab tire iron and smash windshield. not so that you would hurt the child though. just enough that they cannot drive away. i did this myself and watched the idiot come out of the store. i waited 45 minutes before taking the law, err, tire iron from my trunk, into my own hands. made a nice spider-web pattern. i have also gone into stores and made them make an announcement there was a child left in a car and the police would be notified. scared store reps tend to do whatever you want when you have a call phone with 9-1-1 in the display. for the record, i live in a rural area and this shit happens all the time. i only did the windshield once when the feed store refused to call the police and i was without my cell. i likely would do the same with an animal…
oh and before the the grammar/cap police come knocking, my shift key is in the mouth of my parrot…
I’m still not sure how some of you came to translate "it’s too dangerous to leave a child “alone” (alone meaning without any adult or responsible other person supervision) to mean that we frantically and overprotectively think “don’t leave them with ANYONE other than yourself because they (GASP), could be molested, etc.”
To continue the hijaak…If we were having a conversation about the lottery, and I was all for it, and you against it, and I made the statement, “I mean, if the odds of winning were 1 in 20, we’d all be crazy not to play, right?”. It would be inconceivable for someone not to come behind me and go, “the odds aren’t 1 in 20, dillhole, they’re 1 in 10 million, that’s why we don’t play the lottery, and why you should probably stop spending half your paycheck every week on it”.
I been searching for statistics with no results myself. I don’t beleive though that there will be a signifigant difference between then and now on kidnappings by strangers of kids per capita or whatever. I really don’t think that things happen more frequently, I think that things get reported more often (how many 24 hour news channels existed in 1980? how many people had more than just network tv? how many even watched the news or read more than just the local paper?). And the news sources are certainly a lot more sensational and loud now than they were 20 years ago.
If someone can find the actual stats though, perhaps we can settle this.
I got it from the No Excuse, No Risk, Not Ever attitude that was being portrayed in several of the posts. The absolute horror and judgemental resolute anger that came about in all the posts. How anyone who left any child in a car, EVER, should have them taken away. I don’t know if anyone explicitely said that, mind you, it was just the attitude that came accross in a lot of the posts, and it’s the attitude that I was responding to.
I didn’t mean to come down like a ton of bricks on everyone that expressed outrage at child negligence, just the apparent lack of limits they are expressing. The No Amount of Risk, stuff is something I can’t see ever working, and has been getting old to me to keep hearing it from people who otherwise seem completely rational.
Jesus Jumped-Up Christ! Not only did you probably traumatize the child in the car for life, but you damaged someone’s private property. Despite your assurance that the child couldn’t have been hurt, I’d gander to say that swinging a tire iron at the car’s windshield probably put the child in more risk of harm than sitting in the car. Your advice could be dangerous. How many folks know how to bash a windshield just enough to make the point, but not hurt the kid?
Not that I haven’t been tempted to do the same myself, but good God, man, don’t you think that was going a *mite bit * too far?
And yes, there were people here who said it didn’t matter what the circumstances were or what the actual odds were: any risk of something happening to your child alone in a car was too high. Which on its face sounds like a very noble concern for child safety, but in truth is unrealistic and arbitrary.
since when did Child Molesters become the one and only source of danger?
if i saw a kid left alone like that, yeah, i’ll admit all the screaming headlines of our current times would have me tut-tutting over the possibility of abduction. i’m as easily brainwashed as the next person, i guess. but what about the REAL dangers of leaving Active Child alone in a vehicle? from my own misspent childhood, i can well recall: [ul]
nearly guillotining myself with an electric car window (did manage to bite my tongue when the window hit my chin)
playing with the cigarette lighter, to admire the glowing coils (which could go a ways to explaining some of my basic pyromania)
playing “driving” by turning the steering wheel. not sure why the gearshift never attracted my attention; guess God does watch over fools and children
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and that’s without even touching on falling out apparently open windows, wandering loose in the parking lot, honking the horn for the fun of it…
so how come these very probable menaces barely get a sneeze out of anybody?
Long story short - 40s through 60s were a golden age, things have gotten worse since then but not as bad as the 30s. The 70s were about the same as today.
The article talks about overall crime, and not about, say, crime against kids, but to me it does seem to argue for the “CNN-induced paranoia” theory…
I’ve prepaid Blockbuster to get my DVD in November! Awesome movie.
I’ll agree with all who have said “it depends on the child’s maturity.” Also, if your kids run around in the front yard on a safe street, that’s great.
So, let’s go back to the OP subject about kids left in cars. Yes, it’s OK for a minute (but not in Texas, it’s hot here).
I will not back down from being (perhaps) overprotective. My kiddo’s elementary school is a five minute, 3 block walk. They are 8 and 6. Will I let them walk it? No damn way. Maybe in a couple of years.
Well, is the issue that as a culture we want more protection for children than we used to? Or that we are more litigious and the law actually intends to protect store owners or car manufacturers from liability by assigning all responsibility to the parent? I’m just curious what you think, so please don’t kill me for asking.
Actually, the three of us doing the “pro” side of “you can’t be too careful” DID mention them. I think all in all there’ve been 3-5 posts that specifically mention dangers other than kidnappers/child molesters. And that DO specifically mention dangers the child could get themselves into just by messing with the vehicle, etc. But then we got caught up in the percentage argument/hijack and went off on that side trail :).
My son’s father, (idiot, just one of the reasons why he’s my EX), did JUST that, and we just happened to luck out. He left our three year old alone in a huge 70s model Ford Bronco running, and with the driver’s door open because the damn phone in the house rang and he ran back in to answer it. (I was at work).
My son pulled the gear shift into reverse, reversing the truck down a slight incline and into another vehicle with enough force to rip the door off. Luckily my son was smart enough to stay put after he’d realized he was moving and wasn’t hurt at all.
I turned into a raving, screaming bitch from hell that day, let me tell you!!!
Luckily it also scared mister lackadaisical “aaah nothins’ gonna happen” RIGHT out of his idiotic complacent attitude, (the accident, not my bitch from hell act :D), and he’s been ultra careful ever since.
A woman was at the gas pumps which are located across a small residential street from the property I own and where I used to live. She went into the station to pay (lots of windows, she COULD see her car from inside the store) having left the car running and her baby daughter inside in her car seat.
I happened to pick JUST that time to take my dog out for a walk. The mother and several cop cars were all around the station, apparently someone had stolen the car from the gas pump. And this was daytime,shortly after school had let out, tons of people around (the gas station was attached to a McDonalds and it’s all part of a busy strip mall).
Luckily the thief discovered the child shortly after he’d stolen the car, it was found abandoned about a half an hour later at a Jr. High School 30 seconds to a minute or so drive from the station, (10-15 minute walk for me from my old place).
I will never forget the look on that young woman’s face as she stood there talking (or trying to talk) with those officers. And she had BEEN within sight of her car, and the pumps were only a few seconds walk from the station.
The child in the car could have been 5, 6 or 9, it’s happened before (they could have been lying down asleep, the car thief might not have seen them even if they were older). I think THAT, more than “OH MY GOD child molesters LURK EVERYWHERE” is the sort of “it’s too much of a risk to take, why risk it”??? point of view we were trying to get across.
Well, dammit, why did she leave the motor running?
I mean, I would not “get out of the car for a minute” with (only) my kids inside, and leave them the key.
Yes, I know it’s hot outside! I’ll open the window and this will only take me a minute!
(as an aside, how did we all survive childhood without any air conditioning?)
But I refuse to take the slippery slope from the above towards “never, ever, take even the tiniest chance”. A 10-year-old can walk to school. A six-year-old can be left in the car (keys in my pocket!) for 3 1/2 minutes (just to set another arbitrary limit for someone to have at :)) if I can see it from where I am.
Shortly after my previous entry, the phone rings. My wife would like my older daughter (11) to join her a the hair dresser’s. NOW!
But, the Terrible Twins (I gotta TM this!) - 6 1/2 y.o. - are at home, too.
OK - several possibilities here:
Over-protective: Say, “Sorry, no can do, TT are home and I gotta stay here and watch over them”. OR bundle the TT along with big sis for the ride (they were having LOADS of fun just then, would have been a bummer…)
Under-protective: Say, “Sure!”. Waltz out of the house, get Big Girl over to wife, stay and char a while, maybe have coffee while Big Girl is taken care of…
What I did: Say “OK”. Get the twins, tell them I’m going out for ten minutes and DON’T OPEN THE DOOR!. Make sure they remeber my cellphone number. Make sure I remember the cell phone. Get Big Girl to hairdresser’s as fast as legally possible. Hight-tail it back home. Twins haven’t moved from where they were…
So, how many years in prison have I earned? Should I ever be eligible for parole? Conversely, had wife wanted me to stay (she also thought I should get back), could my running off with this lame excuse be considered grounds for divorce?
