Left, Right, and Dershowitz: Why the Left's inclination toward the Palestinians?

Great Debates
41

MC, one must again ask: Do you have any real concept of the history of 20th century Palestine, including the 1948 war? By viewing the whole process of the establishment of the state of Israel as some kind of gigantic exercise to deprive Palestinians of their rights, you have (to use your own words), created a straw man “whilst skirting the wider issue”.

If you really want to learn about the history of Israeli-Palestinian enmity in detail, with a degree of sophistication that exceeds your typical “four legs good, two legs bad” type of argument, investigate the historical summary on mideastweb.org, a pro-peace site founded by Israelis and Arabs.

For starters, I call your attention to this: “May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began.”

Care to view the term “ethnic cleansing” with a little more understanding now?

duality, looks like you could do with a little education yourself.

42

Jackmaii, I’m a historian by training and yes I’m well aware of the history of Palestine, I have a collection of primary and secondary sources (infact that reminds in my last post I forgot to add that AA’s claim that the term Palestinian had not been coined in 1948 is woefully inaccurate as the term is frequently used in a book I own written in 1921/22).

Fighting started before the Arab invasion, with terrorist attacks, israel again never showed any sign of accepting the borders laid out in the partiton plan and that’s assuming that the partiton plan was far in the first place giving the majority of the land to the minority, most of them new arrivals.

Ethnic cleansing was carried out systematically by Irgun and was also used esp. later in the war by Haganah (and contiuned after 1948 when martial law meant that any Arab refugee tryiong to return to his land could be shot on site), you also have to rember at this time the Palestininas only possesd a few hundred rifles (IIRC ~700, despite pleas to the united Arab army) and were not organised into miltary formations.

I suggest you read middleeastweb in more details as it does contain some good historical sources and de-bunking of a few Isareli nationalist myths.

43

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies *
The offer was not acceptable, to the Palestinians, you cannot epect them to concedeanymore land.

So in the meantime it’s better to have your children blow themselves up? It’s better to live in poverty than accept a less than desirable offer? That really doesn’t make any sense.

The Palestinians have an equal right to secure borders and that means, no settlemnts deep witthin their territory and control of their own borders. Why is the job of Arab countries to re-house those dispossesed by Israel, it is Israel’s res[ponsibilty. The numbers dispossesd where not equal the total number of Jews from arab countries wer equal and the time period was 1948-1971. even then the Jewish refugees wer not given confiscated Arab land but had to make do with some of the worst land in rer-settlemnt centres.

The PA defines “secure borders” and “control of their own borders” as all Israel.

And by your reasoning the Palestinians should be accepted as citizens by the Israelis but not by the Arab-Muslim countries. There are thousands of Palestinians living in other Arab nations. They have no real rights in nearly any of them yet strangely enough there aren’t any bombings on the streets of Riyadh. I wonder why?

The Arab countries should take some responsibility for those dispossessed by the war because they are the ones who fought the war in the first place. They’ve urged the Palestinians to fight against the Israelis on their behalf. Many would not have fled had the surrounding Arab nations not urged them to do so. The least they could do is help them do something besides suicide bomb themselves. There have been thousands of Jews driven out of Arab countries. The Israelis have housed them. Israel should not have to accept responsibility for a situation it did not entirely create and bear the entire costs of the Palestinian situation.

No-one knows what Arafat’s assets are, finacial transparency in the PA and PLo have been a cause of much friction within the PA. Also crass and unsuported characterization is no proof of anything.

If no one knows what Arafat’s assets are (and I doubt that’s true) how can say he isn’t rich? I’m sure the Forbes editors did extensive research before they came to that conclusion. And wasn’t being crass about his creepy wife. She DID say she wanted another child so the child could grow up and blow up Jews. Find me a cite that said she didn’t. She also made widely unsupported accusations about Israeli poisoning of children. She’s an idiot.

**This exactly why i called your fisrt post ignorant crap as the politcal bodies that have the most Palestinian support are secular whilst Hamas and esp. Islamic Jihad are marginal. **

To pretend that Hamas and Islamic Jihad aren’t widely supported by the Palestinians is wishful thinking. It’s absurd to make those claims and call ME ignorant. They are by no means “marginal” organizations. You’re indulging in the wishful thinking characteristic of the left on this issue which likes to pretend that the Palestinians and their allies don’t really mean what they actually say about driving Jews into the sea.

No that’s not what isaid but they should not be planted there, how can you say that housing projects that are strictly for Jews only and operate under differen more preferential laws to the surrounding population are not racist.

Some of the settlements should be dismantled. And Jews should be allowed to live in the twenty two Arab nations of the world. They aren’t. The Arab-Muslim world is profoundly hypocritical in this matter.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is big issue in the Muslim world but that’s such a stupid genralization, also how do explain the fact that there was no real antisemtism (I’m not saying that Jews were always tretaed that well, but genreal oppression of religous minorites is not the same thing as antisemtism, even if you could argue that it was worse)in the Muslim world prior to zionsim, if this has nothing to do with the plight of the Palestinians.

Can you honestly deny the profound anti-Semitism of the Arab-Muslim world with a straight face? The President of Malaysia recently gave a speech in which he accused the Jews of the world of doing all kinds of vicious things. He was given a standing ovation by 57 Arab-Muslim leaders. His accusations are commonplace in the Muslim press and classroom.

Even before the establishment of Israel the Jews weren’t treated very nicely in the ME. They were held in great contempt and subject to special taxes.

You can downplay it all you but the anti-Semitism (and anti-Christianity) of the Arab-Muslim world is an important element in the conflict. How are Israelis supposed to trust the Palestinians when they teach their children the most vicious lies about Jews? Part of the reason that people like myself are unwilling to support them in the first place is their failure to rid their societies of this kind of poison. Their plight would be far more sympathetic to me if they didn’t endlessly indulge in Jew baiting.

The left is generally either indifferent to the anti-Semitism of the Arab-Muslim world or actively abets it. Hence my puzzlement and the puzzlement of people like Dershowitz on this issue.

**The fighting statretd before the Arab countries attacked, Israel never accepted the borders laid down in the UN partiton plan. **

And the Arab world has never accepted Israel’s right to exist at all. They still don’t.

44

It’s impossible to carry on a discussion with someone who is only interested in ranting about malfeasance on one side, as a reading of mideastweb.org or any legitimate history of the conflict clearly shows.

You have no balanced perspective to bring to the table; you are december through the looking glass, nothing more.
“Four legs good, two legs bad”.

45

Ah, the beauty of this thread is that everybody- left and right- gets to make up, and then crap all over, the supposed views of the opposition.

Malthus, even though your reply to my post was a misfire, you have some good points: Jewish terrorism (per the definition that Milum embedded in his delightfully fact-free post) eventually petered out. I’m not sure the reasons are as clear cut as you say, though; this may have just been because they made enough progress as a nation that they could begin legitamate military ops.

Also: Arafat is a corrupt gangster. Absolutely true. The main reason he is the Palestinians leader is because he is the only old-school Palestinian leader still alive, largely because he spent most of his life in exile.

Autumn, I won’t rebutt your whole windy post. The OP is, why do “leftists” supposedly favor Palestine o’er Israel, not “are all Palestinians terrorists?” or “Do the majority of Palestinians want a fundamentalist state?” etc. Your reply starts with irrelevancies and untenable or outright false statement, and then drifts off into inflamatory nonsense. I will ask, though: do you really think that, even if the whole population of Palestine supports terror, going so far as to name streets after those “who committ homicide bombers” (sorry, cheap syntax shot), that it justifies an “anything goes” attitude?

If I can engage in some counter-inflamatory nonsense, how does that make you any different from OBinL, and others who feel free to deprive other humans of their right to live, based on their perceived beliefs?

46

Posted by SimonX:

Is Buchanan anti-Israel? Or anti-semitic? I know he argued, in A Republic, Not an Empire, that the U.S. should have stayed out of World War II, and I know he’s dead against our current military presence in the Mideast. But isolationism doesn’t necessarily translate into anti-semitism . . . does it?

47

*Originally posted by 'possum stalker *
Also: Arafat is a corrupt gangster. Absolutely true. The main reason he is the Palestinians leader is because he is the only old-school Palestinian leader still alive, largely because he spent most of his life in exile.

Yet he is widely supported by the Palestinians.

**I won’t rebutt your whole windy post. **

If you didn’t want debate your points why did you make them?

**The OP is, why do “leftists” supposedly favor Palestine o’er Israel, not “are all Palestinians terrorists?” or “Do the majority of Palestinians want a fundamentalist state?” etc. **

I didn’t say all Palestinians are terrorists. I did say there is widespread support for terrorist actions in Palestinian society. This is true. The left makes excuses for this and for Muslim anti-Semitism.

**Your reply starts with irrelevancies and untenable or outright false statement, and then drifts off into inflamatory nonsense. **

How is anything I’ve written irrelevant, untenable, inflammatory or false? Arafat is not irrelevant. Muslim anti-Semitism is not irrelevant. Hamas is not irrelevant.

I will ask, though: do you really think that, even if the whole population of Palestine supports terror, going so far as to name streets after those “who committ homicide bombers” (sorry, cheap syntax shot), that it justifies an “anything goes” attitude?

And could you show me where I’ve demonstrated an “anything goes attitude?” I’ve simply stated reasons why I don’t find the Palestinian cause particularly sympathetic right now. I’ve advocated a two state solution provided the Palestinian state isn’t a threat to world peace or Israel. How is that exhibiting an “anything goes” attitude?

**If I can engage in some counter-inflamatory nonsense, how does that make you any different from OBinL, and others who feel free to deprive other humans of their right to live, based on their perceived beliefs? **

Your comparison of me to OSL is itself nonsense, especially considering that he is quite a popular figure among the Palestinians. Finding fault with current Palestinian and Arab-Muslim society hardly equates to depriving anyone of “their right to live.” The “perceived beliefs” I refer to are Arab-Muslim anti-Semitism and the belief that Jews have no right to live in Israel. These are obstacles that prevent me from feeling much sympathy for the Palestinians. The left overlooks this and I find that very frustrating as I agree with them on economic issues.

48

Gee, whatever happened to me? Or my thread? Or my questions?

AGAIN: I did not intend this as the umpteenth tiresome round of Israel vs. the Palestinians.

I am asking:

–How dependable/reasonable/accurate are the specific points made by Dershowitz in his book? He makes very specific historical claims, folks. Is he misquoting documents? Ignoring relevant contexts? OR–is he correct?

–Let’s assume that Dershowitz is not entirely dependable. Is he such a villain, or such a blind polemicist, that his statements are in general not merely unreliable or incomplete, but utter falsehoods? Because if even 20% of his chapter-titled refutations are valid, he’s made a case against the near-total dismissal of the (so-called) Israeli side, as expressed (in particular) by the “committed Left”–by which I do not mean the US Democratic Party (to be to the left of the extreme right does not a leftist make), but basically the “intellectual”, academic Left of Europe. What in the Leftist philosophy builds sympathy for the Palestinians and antipathy for the Israelis–in this particular historical circumstance?

Somewhere between the “bullshit!” and the “crap!”, and prior to the inevitable “tripe!”, there have been a few glimmers of a response to my OP. Might I have a few more? And a little less invective?

49

Scottt Dickerson:
Somewhere between the “bullshit!” and the “crap!”, and prior to the inevitable “tripe!”, there have been a few glimmers of a response to my OP. Might I have a few more? And a little less invective.

Hey Scottie! Have you no ears? No one here has read Dershowitz’s stupid book. Why didn’t you supply some spicy passages?

And as to the larger question - Why do liberals support the Palestinians? Shodan answered that question two miles back.

OK, now quit your bitching, your question has been addressed and answered and all we have left is invective.

But with deference to your needs as the progenator of this thread, here, one more time, once again, is Shodan’s succinct conclusion…

** Israel is a traditional ally of the US, and therefore some elements of the left who are reflexively anti-American are going therefore to be anti-progenitor Israel. “My enemy’s friend is my enemy, too.” **

Now can we all stop cussin and fighting and just be friends?

50

Milum, you mean like, can we all agree on my opinion and stop this useless discussion, sort of?

51

Yes flonks sorta like yours, but mostly like mine. :slight_smile:

52

Sorry but do you actually have anything worthwhile to say? Have you attempted to even dipute a single one of my statements?

53

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Amethyst Autumn *
**

Oh so now I have to prove a negative for a cite you didn’t even provide? He is in control of sizeable assests, yes.

To pretend that Hamas and Islamic Jihad aren’t widely supported b

Are you even the slightest bit aware of the micropoltics of Palestine? The gfroup that enjoys the widest support is Fatwah and more generally the PLO.

The settlemnts are situated on stolen land they should go.

A suggetsion: learn to read, i did not say that there was no antismetism in the Arab world, I said before Zionism ther was virtually no antisemtism, the special taxes varied from place to place (and were mostly non-extant by the earl 20th century) and applied to ALL religious minorities.

It just makes me so angry that people have the cheek to come on this board and attempt to justify oppression and dispossesion and even go as far as to support overtly racist policies.

54

QUOTE]*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies *
**Sorry but do you actually have anything worthwhile to say? Have you attempted to even dipute a single one of my statements? **
[/QUOTE]

(Irony hangs thick in the air)

Noting your entirely one-sided view of the conflict, and your diatribe about Israel conducting “ethnic cleansing”, I presented a fact that you and other extreme anti-Israel partisans never seem to grasp - that numerous invading Arab nations, attempted to assist the Palestinians in destroying Israel at its founding - an example of “ethnic cleansing” if ever there was one. The idea was to get you to consider what has been done to Israel and put its actions into context.

Your “response” was to rail about the unfairness of the partition and parade selected incidents of wrongful acts against Palestinians, while completely ignoring my point.

In this you are like every other fanatical partisan, who rants about injustices committed by the other side (which is Evil) and which are supposed to excuse every injustice by one’s own camp (which is Good).

There’s a difference between constructive criticism which acknowledges blame on both sides, and the denunciations of fanatics, of which you are one. It is thus useless to try to debate you. One can only point out your grossest distortions.

Historians, by the way, seeing as how you claim to be one, generally expand our knowledge by making us aware of background and nuance that defeats the tendency to view things strictly in black and white.

55

Jackmanii, firstly as I said earlier the Palestinian were not mainly not armed and in 1948 only had a mitlita strength of under 2000, comparedto the various Jewish miltia strength of 30,000 with antother 32,000 reserves*. Israel was absolutely no better in it’s goals either :

I just don’t see why the Palestians should of been compelled to accept the state of Israel being thrust upon them especially as all the main Zionist leaders rejected Bi-nationalism.

They also indulged in major ethnic cleansing, having to resort to more brutal methods as it was relaized that Arabs who fled would not be allowed to return**

I never said both sides were without fault, but if you cannot recognize why it is the Palestinians feel so agrieved about the creation of Israel than you simply will not be able to understand the conflict.

*The Crisis of Religous Nationalism the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Ruethers & Ruethers

**The Palestinian Castrophe Micel Palumbo

56

<i>“I never said both sides were without fault…”</i>

I have never seen a post by you on this issue that pretended to any degree of balance. I do not expect to.

As I said in another current thread, it is such rantings by fanatics on both sides that must be marginalized, for there to be peace.

57

I can’t dictate who posts to this thread.

But now I wish I’da tried to limit it to those who have read the Dershowitz book.

I suppose I deserve to have elicited yet another sterile rehashing of the same old hash. But it’s too bad.

58

To quote you in this thread, Scott: *"Here is a selection of some of the questions which he addresses in the cited book; he uses them to name his chapters:

Is Israel a colonial, imperialist state? Did European Jews displace Palestinians? Were the Jews unwilling to share Palestine? Have the Jews exploited the Holocaust? Did Israel create the Arab refugee problem? Why have more Palestinians than Israelis been killed? Does Israel torture Palestinians? Is Israel a racist state? Is Israel the prime human rights violator in the world? Is there moral equivalence between Palestinian terrorists and Israeli responses?"*

So, you don’t think anybody’s been talking about this stuff*?

And you had no idea at all that anyone would discuss these topics without saying “Dershowitz” every third word?
Reality check, Scott.

*not to any effect, to be sure.

59

Scott: Sorry, I didn’t read the book either, but it has been alleged that Dershowitz plagiarised extensively from another book on the subject - From Time Immemorial, by Joan Peters (which I did read, about 10 years ago). The Peters book was debunked by the same Princeton Professor (Norman Finkelstein) who is now accusing Dershowitz.

Just wondering if you (or anyone else) heard about that, since it hasn’t been mentioned on this thread yet.

Here’s a link to the Democracy Now show transcript where Finkelstein outlines the plagiarism charges:

http://www.democracynow.org/static/dershowitzFin.shtml

60

Jackmanii, do you understand the difference between balance and truth? This charge is especially rich coming from you from your ultra-right wing pro-Isarel stance.

And again you have completely fail;ed to even adress any of the issues brought up in my posts.