+1
Sometimes, this is in response to rationalization by Iraeli apologists who claim that Jews bought Israel, nothing was taken. And bringing the holocaust into it once again ties Israel to judaism. If Israel was created on teh backs of holocaust victims then why was it not carved out of the land of the victimizers instead of the land that Jews happened to desire most, the land that had the most cultural significance for them. If we were trying to be fair, why wouldn’t we create Israel in Germany?
So in what context is the current situation just?
And what sort of context do you think the cold war provides other than provide a historical reason for defending Israel in our own antional interest. Now taht the cold war is over, how does our unwavering support for Israel advance our national interests?
A whole bunch as mentioned.
Can we assume you are outraged that the US is allied with Germany and will now start wildly condemning them?
Yeah, as long as that religion is Judaism.
Yeah, well, the arab spring might change all that.
Some people think that WWII was a watershed event.
The problem here is that so much of the “criticism” of Israel is either flat-out false, or highly exaggerated hyperbole - to the point where one wonders whether the critics really care about things like “facts”.
Look at the example given upthread: what does one call “criticism” such as ‘Israel exterminates Palestinian children’ contained in an editorial cartoon? How should one respond to this? Pointing out that it is false seems limp and lame; after awhile, it is obvious that the people know they are spreading falsehoods - but do not care.
My preference is always to simply point out the facts, and to correct misconceptions (such as your notion that Arabs are denied citizenship-by-birth in Israel - it simply isn’t so). It is harder to point out mistakes of “fact” such as outright blaming-the-victim, as follows, in response to the claim that Israel doesn’t commit terrorism:
I dunno how one should respond to that. By this logic, the terrorists are always right - it is their victims who are to blame for “formenting terrorism”.
There are plenty of rational criticisms which could be leveled at Israel, that is true. Unfortunately, these tend to be drowned out by a tidal wave of irrational or false criticisms, which make any rational discussion of Israel’s actual problems and misdeeds difficult.
Damuri after you rather foolishly argued that Madeline Albright couldn’t be sympathetic to Arabs because she was Jewish(even though she wasn’t you just believed in using the Nuremberg racial laws) I’d be rather careful about complaining about people conflating anti-Israel rhetoric and anti-Semitic rhetoric.
“The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law[38] was passed by the Knesset on 31 July 2003, during the second Palestinian uprising. The law does not enable the acquisition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage.[39] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age they are required to emigrate.[40] This applies equally to a Palestinian spouse of any Israeli citizen, whether Arab or Jewish, but in practice more Israeli Arabs than Israeli Jews marry Palestinians.”
"Some of these communities have established bylaws effectively barring Arabs from moving in. In 2010 the Knesset’s Constitution, Law and Justice Committee finalized a bill intended to bypass previous rulings of the High Court of Justice which had ordered acceptance committees of communal villages of Katzir and Rakefet to accept Arab citizens of Israel as members. The amendment would enable committees of communal villages the authority to limit residency in their towns exclusively to Jews. "
Perhaps I am measuring israel by American standards but these same sorts of restrictive covenants were used to keep blacks out of white neighborhoods.
I don’t think its exactly apartheid but it is institutional, legal and systematic discrimination and segregation
So you think Gaza and the West bank is a separate country from Israel and Israel is a hostile occupying force?
I don’t remember arguing that Albright couldn’t be sympathetic to arabs. I remenber responding to your contention that the state department was arabist (and i admit that I was confused by what arabist meant, I assumed that you meant someone sympatheic to Palestinians in the middle east conflict based on the context of your statement and i admitted that Albright’s Jewish heritage meant little, I did a google search for secretary of state and jewish and her name popped up).
Its also a bit silly to imply that being wrong about one thing means i am wrong about everything.
especially when you say something like this:
Which explicitly denies citizenship to the children of Palestinians born in Israel even if one of the aprents is an Israeli citizen. Sorry I forgot, you dont accept wikipedia as a reliable cite:
^ a b Amos Schocken,Citizenship law makes Israel an apatheid state, Ha’aretz, 27 June 2008
^ Ben Lynfield. “Marriage law divides Israeli Arab families”. Christian Science Monitor. Marriage law divides Israeli Arab families - CSMonitor.com.
^ a b Ben Lynfield. “Arab spouses face Israeli legal purge”. The Scotsman. http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=721352006.
^ Ilan Shahar. “Gov’t seeks to extend order that can curb Arab family reunification”. Ha’aretz English Edition. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/793994.html.
^ “Israeli marriage law blocks citizenship for Palestinians”. San Francisco Chronicle. 2003-08-01. Israeli marriage law blocks citizenship for Palestinians.
^ “UN blasts Israeli marriage law”. BBC News. 2003-08-15. BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN blasts Israeli marriage law.
^ “Briefing to the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women”. Amnesty International. June 2005. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150372005.
(these cites are from teh wiki page so someone might have just fabricated these as well, its a well oiled conspiracy)
"Children born on or after 1 January 2000 to non-German parents acquire German citizenship at birth if at least one parent:
has a permanent residence permit (and has had this status for at least three years); and
has been residing in Germany for at least eight years.
Such children will be required to apply successfully to retain German citizenship by the age of 23. Assuming the laws are not changed prior to 2023, they will normally be required to prove they do not hold any foreign citizenship."
So I guess that the children of illegal aliens are denied citizenship but I am trying to find where citizenship is denied based on race the way it is in Israel.
In fact Germany provides German citizenship to any child with a German parent regardless of where they are born. Israel denies citizenship to babies born to Israeli citizens if their other parent is Palestinian.
O really? Then why are the Israelis resisting the concept of right of return for Palestinian refugees? Is it just the Palestinian refugees in Jordan and other places that they are concerned about?
How so? Is it something they sign when they are born?
But do you think that their negotiating position is reasonable or merely based on their relative military power?
Damuri your claims regarding the events in questions are clearly false.
I never claimed the State Department was Arabist. Furthermore don’t try to blame google for your own fuckups.
You insisted for several posts that Albright was Jewish because her parents were even though she was raised a Christian and never even learned of her parents original religious beliefs until adulthood.
Now, you’re admitting that as far as you’re concerned Jews can’t be sympathetic to Palestinians.
Dude, piece of advice. When you’re in a hole stop digging.
Also, I’m amused that you’re obviously so worked up about Israel even though, by your own admission, you refuse to read anything about the subject except wikipedia, while not getting at all outraged about Germany’s refusal to grant citizenship to children born in it’s borders.
In short, it’s not the treatment of Muslims you’re concerned about, but the behavior of Jews.
I think teh difference is that if a Canadian went to Israel and married an Israeli citizen, they would be eligble for Israeli citizenship by virtue of that marriage and all of their children would be Israeli citizens. If my wife and I (neither of us are Jewish), went to Israel and had a child, that child would be eligible for Israeli citizenship.
However if you were Palestinian, you would not be eligible and your children would be evicted from israel at age 12.
Or if my wife or I were Palestinian, our children would not be eligible and would have to leave with us when we left.
So by that logic if the arab states fight another war and win then its “sorry Israelis, you guys lost” haven’t the rules changed a bit since WWII?
Damuri, you’ll notice that German law you’re defending deliberately excludes any children born prior to 2000.
Have you the slightest idea how many 30 year olds there are living in Germany who were born there and have never lived anywhere else and who, in some cases had parents born in Germany yet they’re snide citizenship.
Sorry dude, but you’re just making yourself look like a massive hypocrite by not getting outraged at Germany particularly since it’s fear of Muslims that motivates these laws in Germany.
I’d recommend actually reading books on the subject rather than making yourself look foolish by simply regurgitating wikipedia as if it was a remotely reliable source.
Damuri, I’m also a bit confused?
Are you under the impression that the children of Israeli Jewish citizens can become Lebanese, Syrian etc if they’re born there?
If so, you’re wrong. In fact, Israeli citizens can’t even enter most of those countries.
Should we assume that you’re outraged by this.
Of course it is.
Wait - what do *you *think would happen?
Israel has a legal system, and the High Court has struck down many laws in Israel pushed on by fringe groups.
The reason why these communities (and you **are **looking at this from an American perspective) don’t want “Arab” neighbors is because they are Jewish communities that are the modern offshoot of the old kibbutz. They can reject Jews, too. Cripes. Does it makes sense for an Arab to join a kibbutz?! 
De facto self-selected segregation is the norm in many places. People tend to be with other like people.
So when you have a group like the JNF which owns a huge chunk of land in Israel (private land ownership in Israel is small - lands are ‘leased’) and has all kinds of programs for farming, community, education, etc. (projects that do extend outside of Jewish communities) it becomes very confusing because Israel does not have a Constitution (many countries don’t) but rather a system of laws, and the courts now have to take into consideration issues of ownership, liberty, non profits, rights, and so forth.
Jews can’t go to many Arab areas in Israel. The Dome of the Rock/Al-Asqa is a good example. Religion is important in Israel, and for the secular Jews - it becomes a matter of national pride, culture and/or politics. Haifa, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv - these places have less distinctive lines drawn, BUT there are, yes, Jewish neighborhoods and Arab and Christian ones. Jews even segregate themselves. There are Charedi, Secular, Masorti, whatever.
One of the articles you linked talked about Haifa, where the Court ordered a village in the district to take in an Arab couple (shortly after it had merged with another). Now the focus is on two other communal areas.
This poses a problem. A commune is an intentional community. So if you have Arabs from the major town wanting to move into the local communes or whatever, it’s not a matter of, oh, this state-sanctioned law won’t accept you, but more of ‘this community doesn’t want you’, and that’s very different in a country where villages, communal living, kibbutzim, etc, are normal.
It’s like…I know you’ll never change your anti-Israel rhetoric, but try to provide some links, thoughtful insight, whatever, instead of just wiki’ing one of the hottest topics of debate.
Jews cannot buy land in many Arab countries (it is illegal), yet there are Islamic organizations dedicated to buying land and building in Israel for Arabs only (specifically Eastern Jerusalem). So yes, you are really looking at this from a narrow perspective.
You have these Saudi Arabian organizations that work to give Arabs money to build in Jerusalem. Where are the housing funds for Palestine? Hmm? Or is it that the Arab world doesn’t care?
Believe you me, Israel wants a two state solution more than Palestinians do. And no one reports on Arab neighborhoods built illegally on Jewish-owned land (by nonprofits, not by the State). It would kind of be like…Muslims building on Catholic-owned land (and yes, the Vatican owns a lot of fn land!) while the Catholic majority government shrugged.
Trust me. This stuff is messy. You want to box it up in a shiny genocidal bow, whatever. It makes me wonder if you really believe all of the stuff you post or if you just don’t care to think critically.
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Possibly - it’s not automatic.
Depending on where they were born and such.
Depends. Stop confusing American law with Israeli law.