Before I do that, can you cite the specific Israeli polices you are talking about? Just something out of wikipedia will be fine. And I assume you are talking about Israel proper, and no the occupied territories. Correct me if I’m wrong about that, because if you’re talking about the occupied territories, then that’s a whole different matter.
When i see removing settlements rather than expanding them I might think you’d have a point.
There are strong restrictions on Arab parties in Israel, they are often banned. All the Arab parties were banned from the Knesset in 2009 (a decision later overturned by the israeli supreme court). Any party that does not agree with israels staus as a “Jewish state” is illegal. To be absolutely fair a part of the problem is the refusal of many Arabs to participate in Israeli elections, but there’s a long history of blocking these parties from gaining any influence.
You think Germany engages in Apartheid?
I assume you’re aware that Germany is filled with people who’ve been living there for two and even three generations without gaining citizenship as are a number of European countries.
As for Israel, I’m confused by your claim that “natural-born residents” are denied citizenship because Palestinians born in Israel ARE granted citizenship.
If you’re talking about the occupied territories your statement makes little sense because those Palestinians very much do not consider themselves residents of Israel and have no interest in being Israeli citizens.
Furthermore the Palestinians in those regions officially annexed by Israel have, almost to the person, categorically rejected Israeli citizenship despite being offered it. The same is true of the Arabs of the Golan Heights(who are not to be confused with the Palestinians).
[quote=“CitizenPained, post:59, topic:581985”]
No, you tried to define antisemticism, the only defintion you offered was entirely in the context of Israel.
Yet you’ve also just stated that it is ridiculous to criticize the Israeli governemnt.
That’s a very arrogant view, I know full well about the situation and the census and land ownership data is not obscure or controversial.
Israel is the occupying power of both Gaza and the West Bank this is something that the UN reaffirmed as their legal status. Allowing limited self-autonmy in gaza and the minority of the West Bank (it may shock you to know the Israeli miltary still directly rules over most of the West Bank) does not equate to not controlling the area.
Cite, you do know there are Israeli checkpoints (and have previously been many more) in the West bank.
This article on [the Arab political party] Balad paints a different picture, so I think you are misinformed. It’s clear that these parties are neither banned nor “essentially banned”. Looks to me like Israel is a democracy that struggles with how to manifest democratic ideals in an imperfect and dangerous world. Just like every other democracy out there, although Israel has some unique situations that make it more paranoid than many.
You’re talking about immigrants. In Israel, the Israelis are the immigrants disenfranchising the indegenous people.
This is disingenuous.
Thy don’t recognize the legitimacy of Israeli authority, but if the institutional racism was removed from the government and mission of the state, then things would be different.
American Indians didn’t want to be American citizens either, but that doesn’t mean it was therefore legitmate to occupy their land and herd them onto reservations.
Balad has been banned twice in it’s short history. There are sever restrictions on the views that these parties can effectively espouse.
Many people have already pointed it out, but I have to do it as well: there is a major difference between being critical of Israel, even if it is unreasonable criticism, and being anti-Semitic, let alone “virulently” so. I see no reason to believe Amir Khadir has anything against Jews individually or as a group. (And for one, “virulent anti-Semitism” would certainly mean favouring discrimination against domestic Jews, which I’m sure you’ll agree nobody would ever suggest.) But Palestinians are an obvious choice of oppressed people to support, especially among nations that view themselves as having fought against oppression and have developed a left-wing type of nationalism.
Myself, as a centrist Quebecer (still makes me far left-wing by American standards), try to put myself in the place of Israelis, and I definitely can see where they’re coming from. I still support peace between them and Palestinians, and the eventual establishment of a Palestinian state, though.
No. He’s talking about the children of immigrants, born in that country.
Who, specifically, is being disenfranchised here? You’re making some wild claims in a very vague manner.
You, too, are making some pretty wild claims without any cites.
Then Germany practices its own low level apartheid. Now how does that excuse the Israeli opression of Palestinians?
You actually don’t know? What is the point of this question?
You don’t know what you are talking about.
There are massive numbers of ethnic Turks living in Germany who were born there and even in many cases who’s parents were born here who are not German citizens.
They aren’t immigrants unless you want to classify just about every Jewish and Italian Americans as “immigrants”.
By your definition, Germany is guilty of apartheid.
Of course while Germany’s treatment of ethnic Turks is disgusting, it’s not comparable to Apartheid just as Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians in the Occupied territories is awful, it shouldn’t be compared to Apartheid.
Yes, Germany is guilty of apartheid. They’ve come a long way.
Jus soli is the exception rather than the rule. There is nothing objectively right about it as opposed to Jus sanguinis.
I honestly don’t know who you are talking about. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs, so it sounds like you’re talking about the Palestinians. But they don’t live in Israel.
That’s disingenuous. “Israel” is land that they were bulldozed off of.
They fought a war and lost. Sorry.
Might makes right? If Hitler had succeeded, that would have made Hitler right?
If the Palestinians ever hypothetically succeed in overthrowing the Israeli state through military means, you will say that the Palestinians are right?
I think we’re getting bogged down in idiotic arguments regarding Israel and whether or not grossly unfair criticism of Israel or anti-Zionism is the equivalent of anti-Zionism.
For the record, I’m very critical of Israel, think the Balfour Declaration was a horrific mistake, but do also find much of the criticism of Israel grossly unfair and stupid and find far too many people play the “I’VE BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING A BIGOT” card to defend moronic statements and find it comparable to the way many idiotic white people squeal about being unfairly called racists after making noxious comments about black.
However, let’s toss that aside as get back to the OP about why anti-Semitism exists on the Left.
The answer is that it does and anyone who claims otherwise is a liar, a moron, or willfully blind.
To give just one obvious example, a recent poll found that 32% of self-identified Democrats vs. just 18% of self-identified Republicans believe that “the Jews” deserve at least “a moderate amount” or “a great deal” of blame for the current economic crisis.
http://bostonreview.net/BR34.3/malhotra_margalit.php
Now, every reasonable person would have to argue that blaming “the Jews” for the recent economic crisis is clearly anti-Semitic and has nothing to do with Israel.
Furthermore, polls do show significant amounts of anti-Semitism in Europe that can’t be defended with squealing “ANTI-ZIONISM ISN’T ANTI-SEMITISM”.
For example, 37% of all British citizens said they thought that British Jews were “more loyal to Israel than to the government of the UK.” A similar poll of non-French Jews about French Jewish citizens found 38% of them also believed in the dual loyalty canard. Results were even higher among Germans(57%) and Spaniards(64%) regarding their countries Jewish citizens.
Now, we don’t know whether results were higher or lower amongst left-wing or right-wing citizens of those countries, but there’s little doubt that solid numbers of left-wing citizens in those countries answered “yes” to that question.
Similarly, it’s worth noting that sizable percentages of citizens in all those countries believed that “Jews” were to blame for the world’s economic crisis and complained about Jews having too much power in the financial world.
http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20Anti-Semitism%20Presentation%20February%202009%20_3_.pdf
In short, anti-Semitism is alive and well amongst left-wing people in both the US and Europe(whether it’s greater or less amongst European right-wingers is more a subject of debate) and this is something we should be having discussions about, not asinine squealing about whether or not criticism of Israel is being silenced with charges of anti-Semitism.
Huh?
That’s an extremely weird comment from an American.
You realize that while that you’re talking about events that happened during an attempted extermination of the Jewish residents of Israel by Arab armies at a time when the allies said nothing as far larger numbers of ethnic Germans were ethnically cleansed from Poland, Czechoslovakia and larger numbers of Jews were being kicked out of various Arab countries in the Middle East.
I assume you despise Moroccans, Poles, Yemenis, Egyptians, Iraqis, and the Czechs for committing ethnic cleansing at the same time at a much greater rate.
Admittedly, the comparison I made is more than a little unfair since if the Palestinian Jews had genuinely wanted to engage in ethnic cleansing there wouldn’t be a million Arab citizens in Israel as there are now, in stark contrast to the vast number of Jews living in Yemen, Egypt, Morocco, and Iraq as well as the number of Germans still living in Silesia and the Czech Republic.
Wars have consequences. They establish new facts on the ground, and the winners generally get to establish those facts. And note that the allies redrew the border of Germany after WWII because Germany lost. If Germany had one, they would have been able to draw new lines, and the world would accept it.
The idea that you can chase borders back in time and “right” every “wrong” that wars produced is a fools errand, and a sure way to ensure that wars will never end.
D’oh.
Worded badly.
I meant had the Palestinian Jews wanted to engage in large, wide scale ethnic cleansing the way it was practiced against Middle Eastern Jews and ethnic Germans of Europe they could have but didn’t, hence why 20% of Israel’s citizenry are Palestinians. In fact, there were many places, notably Haifa, where Jewish leaders pleaded for the Arabs not to leave.
However, needless to say, there was ethnic cleansing carried out against some Palestinians, such as those in Jaffa and Bennie Morris does estimate that around 70% of all Palestinian Arabs fled due to direct or indirect(mostly indirect) armed actions by the Palestinian Jews.
We certainly shouldn’t minimize what happened to them.