[QUOTE=JKellyMap]
So, someone who lives near you, mows your lawn, whose kids go to school with your kids, etc., isn’t part of your community?
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I would. You have to draw a line somewhere; and whoever finds himself on the wrong side of the line is likely to believe himself the victim of injustice.
Mere physical presence doesn’t make anyone a member of a community. I can attend mass at a Catholic church, and I can take part in social functions there or even do volunteer work for a church bake sale or something; but as I don’t believe in Catholic doctrines, didn’t grow up in a Catholic family or a heavily Catholic neighborhood, and don’t have any other significant connections to the Catholic church or community, it would be absurd to insist that I was somehow a Catholic.
When people do not have a shared culture–a shared history, religion, philosophy, language, customs and traditions, values and beliefs, commonly held social and political institutions and principles, and other things beside–they are not a community. They’re just a bunch of strangers who all happen to live in the same geographic area.
An all-inclusive community is a self-contradiction.
And I notice your example doesn’t include the guy who enters the country illegally, uses fake or stolen Social Security numbers and forged papers to get work, lives with 9 or 10 other people in a two bedroom apartment where they play loud music 24 hours a day and harass the women in the neighborhood, drives without insurance or a driver’s license and flees the scene of any accident he causes, whose kids monopolize a teacher’s time at the expense of my kids, and who drives down wages for American citizens.
Just how many unskilled laborers who can’t speak English do we really need?
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
You’re not the first conservative to think the 14th amendment is utterly insane.
[/QUOTE]
The 14th amendment simply does not mean what you think it means, and I will not try to explain it to you.
[QUOTE=Ravenman]
Clearly some rights are reserved to citizens, like voting. But many of the amendments to the Constitution distinguish between “citizens” and “the people” or “any person.” Such as the 14th Amendment:
If the Constitution says that no person may be denied equal protection of the laws, I’m not sure on what basis you seem to be arguing that only citizens should not be denied equal protection of the laws.
[/QUOTE]
How did “equal protection of the laws” come to include the right to enter the country illegally and engage in all kinds of other illegal actions once here? Does it mean that we obligated to provide food, clothing, shelter, medical care, education, and employment for anybody who can make it across the border legally or illegally?
We already have 300 million people here. How many are enough? 400 million? 500 million? A billion?
As I said before, how many poor people who don’t speak English do we really need?
We can’t physically accommodate everyone who wants to come. If we try, they’ll swamp the boat.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Thanks for that. I don’t feel like having my head explode this morning.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t doubt that your little two-watt chicken brain is easily overloaded.
[QUOTE=DigitalC]
I seriously doubt any legal inmigrants are queueing up outside 7/11 for work. Legal inmigrants are usually wealthy, they don’t give work visas to day laborers.
[/QUOTE]
For the most part, you are correct however I have seen a few exceptions.
All arguments about legal or illegal, I would be a little hesitant to use a day laborer from a 7-11 since I really don’t know what his qualifications are and what his criminal background is. Does this guy really know how to lay tile or install drywall? Of course, usually they are hired to do some yard work and or to haul construction debris.
I recall hearing that there was some problem as well with finding an organization to run the center. The town didn’t want to be running it and the organizations interested wouldn’t exclude illegals. Is my memory correct on this?
I think Herndon is in a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. The voters don’t particularly want the center, but the 7-11s get overrun with day laborers looking for work and members of the community looking to hire them. Obviously there is a demand for them or they wouldn’t be there.
I thought that the idea of a center for them was a good one in that it removed them from the street and it gave the laborers and the people hiring them a certain amount of protection. I certainly don’t envy anyone living near that 7-11.
[QUOTE=Caffeine.addict]
I think Herndon is in a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. The voters don’t particularly want the center, but the 7-11s get overrun with day laborers looking for work and members of the community looking to hire them. Obviously there is a demand for them or they wouldn’t be there.
[/QUOTE]
Some of the voters – probably a majority of the voters – don’t want the centre. On the other hand some of the voters – and again probably a majority – benefit from the low labour costs of the immigrant workers in Herndon.
In fact, I’d be prepared to bet that most of those complaining about the centre have benefited in various ways from the low labour costs of immigrants, including a lower price for their wonderfully exclusive homes. What they want is for these poor people to come invisibly – like Santa’s elves – and do all the work cheaply, then disappear again as soon as the work is done: disappear as far away as possible, so they don’t have to allow the poor people who work in their community to be part of their community.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
How did “equal protection of the laws” come to include the right to enter the country illegally and engage in all kinds of other illegal actions once here?
[/QUOTE]
Well, I wouldn’t be comfortable with a system that allowed the government to beat people in the streets because they were illegal immegrants, for example.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
As I said before, how many poor people who don’t speak English do we really need?
[/QUOTE]
I would suggest that question is best directed to the employers who hire such people in their tens of thousands.
In fact, I’d be prepared to bet that most of those complaining about the centre have benefited in various ways from the low labour costs of immigrants, including a lower price for their wonderfully exclusive homes. What they want is for these poor people to come invisibly – like Santa’s elves – and do all the work cheaply, then disappear again as soon as the work is done: disappear as far away as possible, so they don’t have to allow the poor people who work in their community to be part of their community.
[/QUOTE]
And I’d be prepared to bet that many of the people who benefit from cheap labor from illegal aliens choose simply to ignore the destructive impact of illegals on the lives of lower class Americans, and then call us racist when we try to draw their attention to it.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
How did “equal protection of the laws” come to include the right to enter the country illegally and engage in all kinds of other illegal actions once here?
[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t. It means that all laws apply to everyone who is here, regardless of how or why they got here in the first place. Other laws make certain actions illegal, and those who commit those acts can be arrested…but that doesn’t remove the protections granted by the Constitution.
In other words, you can arrest and deport an illegal immigrant, but you can’t remove the legal protections from them that have been granted explicitly by the Constitution.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
And I’d be prepared to bet that many of the people who benefit from cheap labor from illegal aliens choose simply to ignore the destructive impact of illegals on the lives of lower class Americans, and then call us racist when we try to draw their attention to it.
[/QUOTE]
Like those well known liberal organizations - corporations and large businesses?
[QUOTE=villa]
Well, I wouldn’t be comfortable with a system that allowed the government to beat people in the streets because they were illegal immegrants, for example.
[/quote]
Who has advocated that? And how does it answer my question? How does the 14th amendment grant illegal aliens the right to engage in blatantly criminal actions?
[QUOTE=villa]
I would suggest that question is best directed to the employers who hire such people in their tens of thousands.
[/QUOTE]
I would suggest that it is also properly addressed to liberals who hope to build a political power base among immigrants.
[QUOTE=Giles]
So you’re saying that I don’t belong to my local community? I work here, own a house here, recreate here, shop here, pay federal, state and city taxes – all that I lack is a certificate saying that I’ve become a US citizen?
[/QUOTE]
All depends on if you enterred this country legally.
[QUOTE=BwanaBob]
All depends on if you enterred this country legally.
[/QUOTE]
I was responding to a comment by LonesomePolecat about “blur[ing] the distinction between citizen and non-citizen”. He didn’t seem to be distinguishing legal and illegal non-citizens.
[QUOTE=Kokopilau]
Like those well known liberal organizations - corporations and large businesses?
[/QUOTE]
Oh really? In this neck of the woods the major employers of the illegals are the smaller local “gardening service” businesses and a few small-time construction companies; not major corporations or large businesses. I’d be surprised if it were different over by you.
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Yep, on the corner of Elden and Alabama. I live 5 minutes away by foot.
Well, hold on a sec. There is more to this story, and you’re presuming untruths. “Some folks” didn’t open the day laborer center. The town did. The “center” they received was an old police station and barracks. Some of the laborers actually LIVE there. Guess who pays for it to be heated? Guess who pays for their coffee? The residents of the Town of Herndon (me). The problem is that no one knows who’s legal and who’s not. Regardless of their status, they all show up to the police barracks every morning looking to be picked up by contractors for work that day. This is in response to there being 300-400 people hanging around the 7-11 every morning. Said contractors pick them up and don’t bother checking their immigration status. Authorities look the other way because that’s what a judge imposed. I know many of them and this is exactly how it works.
A major point of contention with the residents of Herndon is that it’s expensive as hell to live here and buy a home. I’m currently looking for a house and I can get a sweet 2BR split-entry for $500k. :rolleyes: The problem with day laborers is that they will live 15 to a house in a typical cul-de-sac neighborhood and turn it into an all night party-zone. I’ve looked at some real nice places only to see the house next door or across the street have 4 or 5 white vans parked in the driveway or on the street. Those are the new immigrants’ work vehicles; it’s not that they’re working, it’s where they live – a couple realtors explained this to me and it’s one of the reasons why they’re having a difficult time selling homes in Herndon.
[/QUOTE]
Questions:
Is there any kind of legal limitation in Herndon about how many unrelated people can live in a house?
Presumably these are rentals. Does anyone check if people not “on the lease” are living there? Isn’t that illegal in Herndon?
Are the authorities arresting people for disturbing the peace or violation of noise ordinances for the all-night parties or other behavior that is unacceptable?
I’m not trying to dismiss your concerns; I would have the same objections. I just wonder why laws that would apply to anyone are not used in this situation. Also I don’t know what the laws are there, but I believe that in many cases a lease is required to state who lives there.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
Who has advocated that? And how does it answer my question? How does the 14th amendment grant illegal aliens the right to engage in blatantly criminal actions?
[/QUOTE]
I thought you were saying constitutionally protected rights should be for citizens only? Which would take me out of coverage too, by the way.
I don’t think the 14th grants illegal aliens the right to engage in blatantly criminal actions. I would be intrigued to see legal analysis that shows it did.
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat]
I would suggest that it is also properly addressed to liberals who hope to build a political power base among immigrants.
[/QUOTE]
As long as there is a market for illegal immigrants, there will be illegal immigrants. If you hire them, they will come. You can focus enforcement actions on the individuals who are trying to provide a better life for their family, and, short of the long term incarceration of every person you can find not carrying the right papers (and I am not sure that would work either), there is pretty much nothing that will work to stem immigration.
Or alternatively, you can hit the companies that hire these workers at substandard wages, and punish them. But that would mean that prices would go up in restaurants, in supermarkets, for many services. It would also mean the businesses profiting from this might stop giving money to the politicians concerned. And that would never do.