Legality of carrying and using a weapon designed as a weapon vs using a tool as a weapon

Factual Questions
1

Don’t need answer fast in case anyone wonders.

I’ve heard some bikers will carry a ball peen hammer because they can use it as a weapon, but if they get stopped by police they can claim it is a tool they need to fix their bikes. But a lead pipe has no use as a tool so simply carrying that can get you arrested.

I’ve heard other people sell ‘tools’ that are basically just weapons but are supposed to pass as wrenches.

So what is the legality of the situation? Is carrying a ball peen hammer legal in all situations, while walking around with a lead pipe wouldn’t be? What if a fight breaks out and you hit someone with the hammer, are the penalties less than if you had hit them with a lead pipe you were carrying?

2

You are responsible for injury or death caused by you, regardless of whether you’re carrying a weapon, a tool, or use your bare hand.

Not all tools are legal to carry at all times - try carrying a box-cutter through an airport and onto a commercial airplane, for instance. Or rather, DON’T do that. Really, don’t do that.

On the other hand, in many, many places in the US most people can obtain permission to legally carry guns around around.

Context matters, as does intent. If my job requires me to have a box cutter and use it, and someone jumps me on the way home and I use it as a weapon well that does not indicate intent to use it as a weapon. On the other hand, if I carry a box-cutter in my purse but have no reason to ever use it as intended as a tool then it might be argued I intended for it to be a weapon all along.

I personally know someone who did, in fact, have a length of pipe in his truck which he used on the cranium of a would-be thief who attempted to physically pull him out of the truck. He had just finished a plumbing repair, so he actually had reason to have the pipe in the truck, and the whole incident was caught on film and it was clear that he had tried to disengage/push the other guy away/otherwise attempted less than lethal resolution prior to whacking the bad guy, ruled self-defense and no penalty and no arrest for him.

As I said, context matters. If you’re in the habit of carrying around a length of lead pipe for no real reason and you get pulled over by the cops yes, there could be legal issues. If you’re a plumber, though, carrying pipe makes a lot of sense. A biker? Not so much - I know plumbers that own and ride Harleys, but not while on the job because there’s no place for all the bits and pieces they need for work on the bike.

If you’re a carpenter and carrying around a ballpeen hammer? Sure, that’s almost certainly OK, but carrying one around while you’re riding a motorcycle? I dunno… What sort of bike repair requires a ballpeen hammer and how likely is it to be so common that carrying one around all the time makes sense? Or do you have a toolbox of a complete array of bike repair tools in a saddlebag or just the hammer?

3

I am not a lawyer, but I’ve heard the term “weapon by design” used. Seems to mean that the object has no use other than as a weapon as opposed to an object, such as a hammer, used for defense because it was at hand.

Google search of the phrase shows no results so maybe I’m misremembering.

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4

Prior to my state going “constitutional carry” for knives the litmus test used to be to ask why the person was carrying a knife/box cutter. If the answer was “I use it for work” the burden of proof was on them to prove it. This passed legal muster for many years.

Any tool can be charged as a weapon if it is used that way. If a carpenter smacks someone with a hammer and then hides the hammer under his coat, on top of the battery charge he can be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. Most CCW licenses/permits don’t cover hammers, screw drivers, etc…

5

A ball peen hammer is used in metalworking. It’s not a carpenter’s tool. It would make sense for a biker to carry one, unless the biker was a carpenter.

:smiley:

6

Would anyone ever be arrested or charged merely for possession of a hammer, length of pipe, etc., or would that come into play only after one uses such an item as a weapon?

I carry two pieces of pipe in my car that I could presumably use to brain someone. But I don’t carry them for that purpose. I carry them to help loosen lug nuts doncha know? (Yes, I’ve actually used them that way a few times over the years.)

Am I in legal jeopardy merely for having them in my car?

7

Depends on the statement you make. “Why do you have this lead pipe in your car?”
“For protection, man”

CCW.

And yes, it does work that way. I’ve had charges stick for baseball bats, hammers, pipes, golf clubs, and screw drivers. Most of them weren’t used as weapons but the suspect was dumb enough to admit that’s why he had them in his car, under his jacket, etc…

Yet I had a dirtbag walking down the Hank Aaron Trail with a huge machete and couldn’t charge him with it because he was carrying it openly. I did ticket him for the open container of beer, however. And because he wasn’t intoxicated I had to cite and release him and his machete. When I asked him why he was carrying it his answer was “because I can!” Touche’.

8

I worked in a liquor store, a while ago. The reason I got the job was because an armed robber came in and killed one clerk and wounded another. The owner had guns allover that place. I asked a LEO one time what to do if a robber came in on us. He knew about all the guns, he said do not grab one those guns and start shooting. Either you will dead or you will kill some one. Can you live with that? We never had to choose, thank god!

9

That’s a pretty broad statement. Lots of shop keepers keep firearms and know how to use them properly.

10

My dad once got “detained” driving onto a military base because the gate guard noticed an axe handle sticking out from under the seat in the truck. After 15 minutes or so and much ado, the grizzled old dude in charge came in, got the story, and said “Round here that’s a tool, not a weapon”

11

Is any of this going to change after the Caetano decision by SCOTUS last year? It baffles me that carrying deadly firearms is a fundamental right, but you can still go to jail for possessing a baseball bat.

12

It actually looks like a pretty specific statement. The officer seemed to assume the shopkeeper would use the guns properly-no warnings about shooting an innocent passerby in the street-just that using a gun carries consequences either way.
Either the shopkeeper loses the draw or has to live with knowing he killed someone. For some people, the latter isn’t a problem under those circumstances, but for many it would be a big problem. PTSD and all that.
As a law enforcement officer I believe you would agree that given the choice surrendering the cash in the till is by far the best choice if that works.

If is isn’t going to work, then I guess the luck of the draw is all that is left, but it isn’t a preferred choice for anyone.

13

A car’s driver might carry a hammer to break out the windows in an emergency, and a blade to cut the seatbelts. That would sound less plausible from a motorcyclist, though.

14

In addition to weapon charges, there are also possible charges for “possession of burglary tools” or something along those lines, in certain jurisdictions. Without knowing your location, it’d be difficult to say for sure (and even if I knew it, IANAL, so my legal opinions aren’t worth much)

I think everyone’s in some legal jeopardy pretty much no matter what. If a cop, or a DA, get fixated on you, they’re probably going to find something with which to ruin your day. Try not to let them get fixated on you.

15

Not in CA. You can’t carry openly*, and carrying concealed is county by county with the most populous counties making it very difficult if not impossible to get a permit.

You can own a firearm, yes, assuming it is not one on a not well publicized list.

  • unless in the outback and sometimes only if you have a hunting license.
16

Both of my sons have worked in stores, restaurants and C-stores, and the policy has always been to cooperate and hand over money. I agree with that policy, but I won’t fault any store owner or employee who decides to protect themselves with a gun. There are known cases where the miscreants decide to shoot anyway, and cases where they assaulted employees.

As to carrying a tool to use as a weapon, it seems clear that one should always answer that they possess the tool or recreational implement for its intended use - play baseball, play golf, fix plumbing, hammer metal, etc.

17

This happened a long time ago, but in Philly when I was in school, a seamstress was convicted of carrying a concealed weapon for having a scissors in her purse.

18

How that fundamental right is applied varies greatly. In New Jersey it’s basically impossible to get a carry permit. Jokingly it’s said if you have a bat in your car you better have a glove too. As PK already explained it’s the intent that matters more than the weapon. In my state there is no specific length of knife that is illegal to possess. If you are going hunting and have a 12 inch Bowie knife on you it’s not illegal. If you are carrying a Swiss Army knife just in case someone needs stabbin’ that’s illegal.

Of course intent can be hard to prove. In my 20 years almost all of those I’ve seen charged with possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes when it’s a knife or a bat or a pointed stick were charged after they did something naughty with the object.

19

What about fresh fruit?

20

If you have a concealed kumquat in your car for the purposes of mayhem and havoc, you’re totally in trouble. And should expect to get eaten by a tiger or squashed by a 16-ton weight.