Legitimacy of the Iraq invasion/occupation vs. legitimacy of the insurgency

This discussion came up in this thread – “Iraq and Vietnam” – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294790 – and in this one – “How far to the left is MoveOn, really?” – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=295366 – and I think it’s important enough to merit its own thread.

My thesis: By the generally accepted standards of the international community, the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Iraq are not legitimate. The Iraqi insurgency against that occupation is legitimate.

True, the Coalition toppled a dictatorship and is trying to establish a democracy (kindsorta; I think the Iraqis will find their freedom to choose their own leaders will be severely limited if they should want to choose leaders who would repudiate contracts granted to foreign corporations since the invasion and kick Halliburton out of their oilfields). But what difference does that make? Ever since WWII, the international community has accepted the principle – such international peace as we have had has been based on the principle – that national sovereignty is a more important consideration than the value of any particular political or social system. I don’t have a cite for that, I don’t know if it’s embodied in the U.N. Charter or any other instrument of international law, but it’s something everybody just knows. I’m not entirely happy with it, as a rule of international relations – I’m an internationalist, I don’t even approve of national sovereignty as such – but there can be no question that it is a well-established, widely accepted rule. It was the principle of national sovereignty that Bush I invoked in the Gulf War. From the POV of the Kuwaiti people, democracy vs. despotism was not at issue; the only issue was whether they would be ruled by a Kuwaiti despot or a foreign one. But their country had been invaded by foreigners, and Bush was able to sell the international community on the idea that that alone justified intervention.

And by that standard, we have no more right to invade any despotism to give its people democracy than North Korea would have a right to invade South Korea to impose Communism. Unprovoked interference with another country’s sovereignty is generally held to be unacceptable except in very unusual and extreme circumstances, e.g., where foreign intervention is necessary to put a stop to genocide, as in Bosnia and Kosovo.

The Iraqi rebels, on the other hand, are fighting:

(1) An internal insurgency over what regime is to govern their own country. And that kind of struggle is always legitimate even though it is always, by definition, illegal. Most governments now existing, after all, had their origin in a revolution of one kind or another. (Including ours, of course. And Britain’s, whose present political system is rooted in the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688.)

(2) A national resistance aiming to drive out a foreign occupying power. That kind of struggle also has been viewed as legitimate, at least since WWII, which gave us the examples of the French. Poles, etc., fighting the German occupation of their countries, and the period immediately following, which gave us the examples of nationalist rebels fighting European colonial powers. Most nations now existing in Africa and Asia – and, for that matter, the Western Hemisphere – owe their independence to that kind of movement. How can anyone today deny, in principle, that such struggles are legitimate?

The insurgents’ terrorist tactics might be abhorrent and intolerable by any internationally accepted standards, but by those same standards, their cause is perfectly legitimate; and by those standards America’s occupation and “nation-building” program in Iraq is not a legitimate cause.

N.B.: The question of whether a given political cause is legitimate according to the usages of the international community has nothing to do with whether that cause is just or unjust, or whether its success would make things worse or better for the population concerned.

But, but, Saddam was evil, and he was killing his own people!

I think that invading Iraq may have been the right course of action back when he was killing Kurds in droves, but of course, the west was something of an accomplice in that. It is a hard sell to claim that an invasion was necessary in 2003 for humanitarian reasons. Saddam was behaving himself reasonably well then (only killing, torturing and raping a few people at a time). I believe the invasion was illegitimate.

As for the current insurgents, some foreign power invaded their country, and they are fighting back. Of course that is legitimate. Their tactics sometimes are abhorrent, though.

The U.S. may or may not have broken several international laws. The question that matters: so what? Is there actually going to be any real world consequences?

I’m not all the anti-American forces can claim a legitimate position. The “insurgents” cannot be thought of monolithically; and some are not Iraqi, nor do they have any particularly beneficial interest in Iraq per se; rather, they are focused on fighting with Americans, and Iraq gives them a convenient theater of operations. Yeah, some of the fighters are veritable Sunni or Shia nationalists seeking freedom from American occupation; some of them are foreign combattants associated with groups like Al Qaeda; some of them are just gangs of thugs fighting for petty warlords. There are probably lots of other catagories various “insurgents” fit into.

Having said all this, I regard the American position as patently illegimate and illegal. If the US hadn’t disbanded the Iraqi military upon toppling Saddam, there may have been a “legitimate” fighting force at work in Iraq today; but presently, it’s a rampaging farce as far as “legitimacy” goes, with no large, organized group that I could point to as ideally representing Iraqi interests, or doing something of benefit for the security of the world at large, both being the stated goals of the American Invasion.

Someone is sure to come along and point out that Saddam wasn’t following his post-first war agreements with the UN. However, I don’t think this flies because the US tried to get the UN to act as we wanted but the UN decided to act as the majority of its members wanted. I know that was, in the opinion of many, pretty uppity of the UN but that’s what happened.

I also think the US unilateral decision to enforce UN rules irrespective of what the UN members thought was not legitimate.

I have trouble understanding why a majority of US citizens don’t agree.

BrainGlutton, I have a two part question for you. Do you view the invasion/occupation of Iraq is illegitimate because it was not authorized by the United Nations?

(I’ll follow up with the second question once I know where you stand on this one.)

It’s not a question of how I view it. I’m making a case that the invasion was illegitimate by the standards of the international community. And as I’m made clear, I don’t personally approve of all of those standards, but there they are – the basis for such “rule of law” as we have in international relations. By those standards, I suppose, yes, if the UN had voted for the invasion it would be legitimate – because even the principle of national sovereignty has acknowledged exceptions, situations where it is legitimate to violate it, and the UN is the body with the most perceived authority when it comes to making that kind of determination.

Um, OK. Feel free to debate away regarding legitimacy, and come to whatever conclusion you’d like. I, OTOH, prefer to concern myself with whether or not a cause is just or unjust, and whether or not a campaign’s success would make things worse or better for the population concerned. Any “legitimacy” unrelated to these issues is, of course, um, really, super important, though. So, yeah, carry on this critical debate.

There was a time when invading Iraq and toppling Saddam would have been legitimate. Back when we were selling him weapons while he was gassing people, or maybe when he started invading neighboring countries.

As of 2002, however, Saddam was a paper tiger. Iraq suffered for it. The half-assed US oversight of Iraq between the Gulf War and 20002 very much limited what he could do, and the sanctions were the deathblow. The country went into rapid decline during this period, and as of 1999, I don’t think most people really thought much of Saddam.

Except a group led by one man. Chalabi, possibly the future Prince of Iraq.

On the specific topic of the 2002-2003 invasion, it was very much illegitimate. Iraq hadn’t done a thing since we let them slaughter the rebels we encouraged to uprise after the Gulf War. An occasional token gesture like firing a missile at a plane in their airspace was the worst Saddam could do. But suddenly, out of thin air, heaps of charges appeared on the scene. Pretty much all of those have since been disproven by the simple fact that they were lies fed to morons who spread them to a terrified public willing to believe anything.

The UN, of course, was wiser than to believe the heap of bullshit, and they got soundly thrashed for it at the time.

Now everyone - US, Iraq, the UN, everyone (except maybe Iran and the Iraqi Kurds) is worse off than they were. History, I hope, will not look back kindly on this.

I don’t see any reason to debate the legitmacy of the Iraq invasion again in this forum. It’s been done to death in dozens of threads.

As to the insurvency, I see several problems with the OP’s thesis:

  1. There is no single insurgency, so talking about it as though it is a unified effort makes no sense.

  2. In order to determine if any group is legitimate, it would be necessary to evaluate both their stated goals and whether their actions substantiate adherence to those goals. I’m not familiar with even the stated goals of any of the groups involved, and the OP hasn’t given any references to those goals, so I don’t see how this evalutation can be made.

  3. In as much as we can infer the goals of some of the groups, they appear to go well beyond “kicking the Americans out” and into disprupting any and all civil order. This makes them not legitmate, by any reasonable standard of legitimacy.

  4. I disagree that the (terror) tactics are irrelavent, as the OP has suggested. If that were true, then the same should apply to the US-- the goals were legitimage, it was just the tactics that were not.

Or the Shia? You know, that pesky liberated majority we freed from Sunni oppression? I think things are better barring the security situation, but even thats better than the organised terror from a regime which held large majorities of the people it kept under control in scorn, in difference to this government we’ve helped created which actually wants to help.

Like it or not, the concept of “legitimacy” is super important when you’re trying to drum up international support. Bush I could not fight the Gulf War on the slogan, “Democracy for Kuwait!” After all, the exiled Emir of Kuwait might not like that, and our Saudi allies definitely wouldn’t. But he could claim Iraq’s invasion was illegitimate, and intervention justified, because Kuwait was internationally recognized as an independent sovereign state.

Well sure there are. We’re raising a whole new generation of battle hardened guerilla fighters, with every reason to hate, and take action against, US interests around the world. Even if we do implement death squads, the trickiest ones will get away, and we’ll be facing them on battlefields of their choosing for decades to come.

Put another way: It is possible to reach much broader international agreement on questions of “legitimacy,” as defined in this thread, than on “justice” or “injustice.” The former is in the nature of a compromise most countries can live with. The latter is based on application of value-systems which vary widely from one culture to another.

Allow me to quote the relevant info from a blog, but a good one, Juan Cole’s Informed Comment, this post about the killing of Margaret Hassan:

His comment on the Fallujah insurgents I think generally applies:

Now I did argue that we, the US, need to get out of there, in the thread I started, but if you look at my posts, at no time did I agree with the proposition that the insurgency is the moral equivalent of anything but a bunch of random murders with no real point, and I also specifically pointed out that this is a civil war, in which the Sunni part is fighting to, as Juan Cole put it in that blurb above, “avoid the enfranchisement of the Kurds and Shiites.”
So no, there is no moral equivalency. I don’t like that we’re there, but I have little sympathy for the insurgency.

US invasion of Iraq…my answer is, it depends. When is an invasion ever legitimate? What invasions have been legitimate in the last, say, 100 years…and why were they?

Certainly the Iraqi government was a rogue government. They had a history of aggressive behavior in an unstable region. They had a man in the drivers seat who had already shown his willingness to use WMD if it suited his goals…both against Iran and against his own people. Sanctions, which were devastating to the Iraqi people but really didn’t effect Saddam and his regime, were probably the only thing that kept him from completely re-arming and from researching or developing new WMD…and those sanctions were had a pretty low shelf life by 2003. I figure MAYBE they would have remained another year or so…5 at the very outside IMHO. And of course, Saddam had already figured a way around them with the whole corruption of the Oil for Food program…and was using that money not only to build another palace but to re-arm and create things like his para-military units to inflict more terror on his own people.

Was he a direct threat to the US? No. Not hardly. Was he an indirect threat? Perhaps. He had already shown his willingness to make payments to Palistinian terrorists and suicide bombers. In addition there are some tenuous indications that at least at some level he was in contact with other outside terrorists. I dont really think this constitutes a direct OR indirect threat to the US, but the possibility exists of an indirect theat, no matter how unlikely.

Was Iraq and Saddam a threat to US interests? I think the answer to this is…they could certainly become one. Again, Iraq had shown a history of aggressive behavior in the region…a region that is of vital strategic importance not just to the US but to the industrialized world.

Insurgents: I don’t see how you can call them legitimate but hey, thats your thesis. For my part I don’t see any of the trappings that would make such an insurgency even quasi-legitimate. There is no great movement. There is no great leader. More importantly there is no overall goal…save getting rid of the US and stopping Iraqi elections. The tactics they are using are as apt to kill their own citizens as to kill or hurt US forces. They have kidnapped and executed in graphic and widely disseminated ways innocent civilians with the only purpose being to scare off contractors who are there to help restore Iraqi infrastructure. Even doing things like this to armed forces means they are outside such niceties as the Geneva Convention…doing them to civilians is monsterous.

I’ve seen these insurgents compared favorably to the French Resistance, to the American Revolutionaries and to the Vietnamese VietCong…but they really aren’t like any of those. The French were united behind the idea of a free France, the Americans by the idea of an American democracy and freedom from British tyranny, and the Vietnamese/VietCong by a desire for a unified Vietnam under communist rule. All those other movements had unifying goals and leaders…but not the Iraqi resistance. Who are the leaders? What are the goals? Are they unified in any way?? The answer to those questions, at least to my mind are they have no unified goals, no unified leaders…they are simply there to spoil things for Iraq, to kill and cause terror to their own people, and perhaps to break America’s will to stay.

Sunni insurgents, Saddam/Ba’athist loyalists, Shi’ite insurgents, foreign fighters, disgruntaled Iraqi’s…where is the unifying principal among them except perhaps to kill Americans? Other than that, where is the common vision, the goals, the leaders…anything which would spell unification if they actually managed to break America’s will and drive us out? It doesn’t exist. So, to my mind at least, neither does even a tenuous legitimacy, that would at least quasi-justify their terror tactics on the Iraqi people. Perhaps if they stuck to simply attacking Americans/coalition troops there would be a legitimacy of sorts…but they haven’t so, in my mind at least, they have no legitimacy.

-XT

If you had asked a Massachusetts Minuteman at the battles of Lexington or Concord what they were fighting for, would they have been able say anything other than that they were fighting to get rid of the British? Most revolutions are fought against ruling powers, without the soldiers knowing who or what will come into power if they win. I’m sure that, similarly, the majority of the Sunnis fighting for the insurgency don’t know exactly what sort of government will be put in place if they should win. What they know is that they don’t want to join a democratic government in a country that’s majority Shi’ite.

The Shi’ites, if they got absolute power, would likely demand total control over the press and total censorship power. They would pass laws restricting where women can work, what they can wear, and so forth. And they might well attack any non-Shi’ite religious order. Opposition to “civic order” can be perfectly legitimate if it’s clear that any national government that gets formed from this mess would oppress the Sunni minority.

I’d say that most of your minutemen knew they were fighting for a new nation AND to get rid of the British. I would be willing to bet most of them at least knew who the leadership was. But ok, say the average grunt didn’t have a clue except that they were to kill the British…and the same goes for the average Iraqi grunt as well. Lets talk about the leadership of the various factions then…THEY should know, correct? And what exactly are those unifying goals? Who is in charge or even has a vision for the future of Iraq? I’m guessing you’d get radically different ideas if you asked a Shi’ite faction leader, a Sunni faction leader, a Saddam/Ba’athist loyalist, one of the myriad foreign fighters/terrorists or a Kurd.

The only thing that is even a quasi-unifying thought is to break America’s will so we leave. After that its chaos and civil war to make the occupation look like a cake walk. And, less we forget, the majority of Iraqi’s aren’t IN any of the warring factions. What is THEIR will? What do THEY want? Probably not to be killed is high on their list…after that, gods know. To me it just seems that 10, 000 or 20, 000 or even 40, 000 people who are fragemented all to hell don’t have any kind of legitimacy to dictate to 28 million what is right…using terror tactics.

Show me that the majority of the people are behind any one of these groups, that Iraqi’s are rallying to a unified message, even one of Taliban type government and Islamic Fundamentalism as its creed, and I’ll change my mind about how legitimate this insurgency is. Right now it appears to me that they are killing for terrors sake, merely to break America’s will and the will of the majority of the Iraqi people so that they can get down to the serious business of fighting it out to the death with each other for the scraps…and killing Iraqi citizens wholesale instead of retail.

IMO it depends on HOW they come to ‘absolute power’. If the elections are held, I don’t see that happening…at least not initially. Perhaps they are destined to have such a beast over them reguardless…but at least they have the chance to avoid it.

If the Shi’ites come to power after the US flees and following a grim multi-sided civil war (a distinct possibility considering the Shi’ite majority), then you are probably right. I can easily see an Iranian or Taliban style fundamentalist state in Iraq…very easily. Of course, the OTHER insurgent groups won’t be too pleased as I doubt this is their vision for Iraq…which is kind of my point.

-XT

Let me be blunt. Who cares?

International support is as meaningless as international law. With all due respect to our UK dopers (screw the French) if the US had gone it totally alone in the first Gulf War absolutely, positively nothing whatsoever would have been different. All the other military powers of the world combined do not equal a tenth of the US’s.

And the same goes for the UN. The United Nations may be an ‘international organization’ but you’ll notice where its headquarters is located. And it would vanish from the face of the earth, both as a concept and an ongoing concern, if the US ever pulled out.

Of course the rest of the world doesn’t support our actions in Iraq. Our actions there are a direct result of 9/11 and 9/11 happened to us, not them. If there had been three more 9/11s on US soil since the first the rest of the world still wouldn’t care.

Like it or not war is (and should be) the single most selfish act any country can commit.

The American revolution was an organized effort to expell the British and create a new government. There was a provisional government (Continental Congress)set up right after the Declaration of Independence. I would say the minutemen new exaclty what they were fighting for. Are you seriously comparing the insurgents in Iraq to the American revolutionary fighters?

Pure speculation. How can you say that it is “clear” that a new government will oppress the Sunnis. The Kurds are a smaller minority (and are also Sunni) and they don’t seem to have concerns similar to your speculations.