[QUOTE=lekatt]
Since I have posted here I have been villified, called names, had my posts misquoted on purpose, and generally been harrassed by the skeptical posters that rule this site. They have run off dozens of posters who hold opposing views to theirs. I am still here for now.
[/QUOTE]
You know, we’re really in need of some firewood-you think you could spare us that cross you’re hanging yourself from?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
This link is to a researcher debunking what a skeptic had to say about his research. The research can be looked up in the Lancet where it was published.
[/QUOTE]
Following this link, I find references to what appear to be peer-reviewed studies of NDE in the notes; for example, "1 Van Lommel W., Van Wees R., Meyers V., Elfferich I. Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands. The Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-2045. "
I asked for a link to just one peer-reviewed study that you believe supports your view. This is the closest I have found to an answer to this question. Do you believe that the above-cited Lancet study supports your view and is peer-reviewed? If so, please let me know, and we can continue the conversation with that in mind.
Daniel
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
Following this link, I find references to what appear to be peer-reviewed studies of NDE in the notes; for example, "1 Van Lommel W., Van Wees R., Meyers V., Elfferich I. Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands. The Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-2045. "
I asked for a link to just one peer-reviewed study that you believe supports your view. This is the closest I have found to an answer to this question. Do you believe that the above-cited Lancet study supports your view and is peer-reviewed? If so, please let me know, and we can continue the conversation with that in mind.
Daniel
[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn’t I, it was published by the doctor who is debunking the skeptic, yes, I fully believe it does.
I would love to quote directly from Lancet and other scientific journals, but I can’t afford the price to join them. I generally always say where they are published and those that do have the money can read them there. I live on SS and money is tight. Most of the studies I link have been published in scientific journals. If they are personal experiences I say so.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Why wouldn’t I, it was published by the doctor who is debunking the skeptic, yes, I fully believe it does.
I would love to quote directly from Lancet and other scientific journals, but I can’t afford the price to join them. I generally always say where they are published and those that do have the money can read them there. I live on SS and money is tight. Most of the studies I link have been published in scientific journals. If they are personal experiences I say so.
[/QUOTE]
Here’s the article, available freely on the net: http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
Interesting study, but not one that I’d draw any definite conclusions from.
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Here’s the article, available freely on the net: http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm
Interesting study, but not one that I’d draw any definite conclusions from.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the link, and down in the references are many other researchers one can study if they desire.
Zoe offers a damned good point, lekatt, at least as far as proof/evidence goes.
You have given us “personal experiences” and called them “proof”. As she said, there are evidence.
I can prove I’m wearing purple today. I can’t prove, say, that oh, that Ronald Reagan was in on Iran-Contra. I can provide evidence, for or against. But can I prove it 100%? No, no I cannot. I cannot prove the identity of Jack the Ripper-I can only offer various theories and their basis.
I also find it interesting that you believe the doctor in the article because:
I also think you need to look up something called “circumstantial evidence,” and “reasonable doubt.”
If the doctor’s conclusion had been the opposite, would you still accept it?
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
The next time you tell a poster that they are afraid of some claim you have made or tell a poster to not be afraid or **tell a poster that they will “understand” “some day,” ** you will get a Warning for that action because as old as you are, I simply do not believe that you are unaware of the condescension you express. Making attempts to express wide-eyed innocence while claiming that you “love” everyone while engaging in acts that are clearly insulting (and for which the insult has been pointed out in earlier threads) is a pretty clear indication, to me, that you are deliberately being offensive.
You do not have to confess your sins, but you will stop that behavior.
[ /Moderating ]
[/QUOTE]
Heck, I do that all the time. I even acknowledge the fact that it is blatant wittnessing. I have never viewed “We will all know the answer someday” as condesending or insulting. Apologetic sure but not condesending.
Well, as long as we’re discussing banning opinion and anicdotal input in GD, might just as well ban the Apologetics and Wittnessing as well.
Of course, all facts were once someone’s “opinion” and there has always been someone there to argue with them. Someone had to come up with it first, even as simple a concept as 2 + 2, someone came up with it and someone argued against it.
Not that I am defending Lekatt’s drive-by style. Or his apairent lack of consistancy. Or his assumingly apologetic and repetitive dogma. Or his stubborness in providing reputable cites. Or his acceptance of cites as reputable when others do not and ask for something more neutral. Just that I think he does have a slightly valid point of paranoia (even if it is well deserved) that pushes him onto the defensive side.
Odd that anyone who espouses a quasi-eastern philosophy as reflected in previous posts would allow others to press him to the defensive instead of realizing that his emotions come from his own mind, no one can “make” him feel anything he can only make himself.
[QUOTE=nd_n8]
Heck, I do that all the time. I even acknowledge the fact that it is blatant wittnessing. I have never viewed “We will all know the answer someday” as condesending or insulting. Apologetic sure but not condesending.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not what Tom was warning him about. Tom said “…or tell a poster to not be afraid or tell a poster that they will ‘understand’ ‘some day.’”
Lekatt doesn’t simply say that someday, we all will know the answer - he says that he knows the answer now and the person he’s addressing just isn’t there yet. It’s very condescending and offensive.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
There is no proof of anything you say about them yet, might want to wait and see if some surfaces, remember it is facts that count.
[/QUOTE]
This particular raid was, again, of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is the polygamy-practicing sect formerly headed by Warren Jeffs, who was convicted in a Utah court of being an accomplice to rape for marrying a 19-year-old man to a 14 year-old girl. He will also answer related charges in Arizona. Keep in mind, this is the spiritual leader of that cult, the one who defines what conduct is acceptable, not a mere bad apple. Another cult member says, when confronted with their violation of the law regarding having sex with minors cite :
So they don’t even pretend that they don’t marry children to older men. All they claim is that they didn’t know it was unlawful! :eek: (if, of course, you believe that claim…)
And investigators are finding that the cult members are obstructing investigation efforts, having “difficulty” reporting their ages or who their blood relatives are (strange in a small isolated community, don’t you think). At any rate, they won’t be able to hide from DNA tests.
And these are the people you praise for being such pure, spiritual beings?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Why wouldn’t I, it was published by the doctor who is debunking the skeptic, yes, I fully believe it does.
I would love to quote directly from Lancet and other scientific journals, but I can’t afford the price to join them. I generally always say where they are published and those that do have the money can read them there. I live on SS and money is tight. Most of the studies I link have been published in scientific journals. If they are personal experiences I say so.
[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is, though, I already had posted the link to the study. And you neglected to read it.
Indeed, your only reply to the post where I linked to it (and, via google, it really wasn’t that difficult to find), was that I hadn’t read the links you had provided. Kind of ironic, isn’t it?
But, back to business: What kind of Near Death did you suffer when you had your Out of Body Experience?
And, failing a response, I for one will correct you every time I see you posting about your NDE, saying that it actually was an OBE. Cheerio.
[QUOTE=Omegaman]
I love you lekatt
[/QUOTE]
So, by lekatt’s logic, that makes you God, then, yes?
Also, I’d really like to get back to talking about Carla Gugino’s breasts. We seem to have left the subject behind on page three and I’m fairly certain there’s more to discuss.
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]
The funny thing is, though, I already had posted the link to the study. And you neglected to read it.
Indeed, your only reply to the post where I linked to it (and, via google, it really wasn’t that difficult to find), was that I hadn’t read the links you had provided. Kind of ironic, isn’t it?
But, back to business: What kind of Near Death did you suffer when you had your Out of Body Experience?
And, failing a response, I for one will correct you every time I see you posting about your NDE, saying that it actually was an OBE. Cheerio.
[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you are talking about.
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]
And, failing a response, I for one will correct you every time I see you posting about your NDE, saying that it actually was an OBE. Cheerio.
[/QUOTE]
Or just a dream, which is more likely.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I have no idea what you are talking about.
[/QUOTE]
Let’s clarify then: I have, repeatedly, asked about you NDE. Specifically, on your site, you mention you had an NDE but in your story you never clarify what kind of Near Death you suffered while you were having your NDE.
As far as I can tell, you have studiously avoided answering that question. If you had, at any time, at least acknowledged it, I would by now have enough material to accept your description of it as an Near Death Experience.
But since you steadfastly ignore the question and try to change the subject, I have to assess your experience according to available data. And the available data thus far tell me that you had an Outer Body Experience. And if I ever see a post of yours where you mention your personal NDE from now on, I will try to correct those words.
[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Also, I’d really like to get back to talking about Carla Gugino’s breasts. We seem to have left the subject behind on page three and I’m fairly certain there’s more to discuss.
[/QUOTE]
We’ll need data. Lots of data.
And DiggitCamara, unless you have some other bodies we don’t know about, it’s Out of Body Experience.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
We’ll need data. Lots of data.
And DiggitCamara, unless you have some other bodies we don’t know about, it’s Out of Body Experience.
[/QUOTE]
Hey, I got distracted by thoughts of Carla Gugino, too. :smack: (and what’s worse, in my first response I actually got it right)
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara]
Let’s clarify then: I have, repeatedly, asked about you NDE. Specifically, on your site, you mention you had an NDE but in your story you never clarify what kind of Near Death you suffered while you were having your NDE.
As far as I can tell, you have studiously avoided answering that question. If you had, at any time, at least acknowledged it, I would by now have enough material to accept your description of it as an Near Death Experience.
But since you steadfastly ignore the question and try to change the subject, I have to assess your experience according to available data. And the available data thus far tell me that you had an Outer Body Experience. And if I ever see a post of yours where you mention your personal NDE from now on, I will try to correct those words.
[/QUOTE]
Suggest you learn about NDEs all of them begin with an OBE.
We have now established that at least one of my links is a qualified scientific study. I believe most of them are, but the path is now open for a discussion and debate on near death experiences. We now have good evidence that consciousness continues after the death of the body. So now we can look over the evidence and talk about the elements. That is, of course, if anyone wants to do so.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Suggest you learn about NDEs all of them begin with an OBE.
[/QUOTE]
So? Your experience is clearly an OBE. However, it is far from clear that it is an NDE.
And, since you continue prevaricating, I’ll have to conclude there was no Near Death situation involved.
[QUOTE=hotflungwok]
We’ll need data. Lots of data.
[/QUOTE]
Start here.
