(As a mildly interesting personal experience, it is OK. Of course, I see no place on the essay where he claims an OBE and no place where he claims to have proof that OBEs are possible. He simply had an experience at a traumatic event in his life from which he took away a greater openness to the spiritual realm. I certainly have no problem with that–although I note that it has absolutely nothing to do with “proving” or providing evidence that the consciousness possesses awareness separate from the body–which is the point for which this thread was created.)
Of course I acknowledged a scientific study when I saw it. I believe everyone here will agree that the study linked to by Qadgop is a scientific study. And of course reality is what it is; that’s so obvious that it doesn’t need to be said, I would think. What we’re doing is debating what it is.
The difference is that I am not sticking with what I “know” to be true. I don’t know what is true. I know what I believe I have observed, and I draw more or less tentative conclusions from that. I acknowledge my fallibility and the possibility that I have drawn mistaken conclusions from my observations.
For example, I observe that, after this my fifth request, you have STILL refused to follow through on your offer to quote scientific studies (with the aforementioned qualifications; I won’t repeat them in this request) that support your viewpoint. That is an observation. My conclusion, that you are unable to do so, is tentative; I do not KNOW that it is true, and I am open to having my mind changed.
In that sense, you were right: I AM different from someone else in this thread.
I do appreciate your seriousness, but I don’t think you would ever find a personal experience as proof of anything, no matter how many there are. I believe personal experiences are valid, especially when in such large numbers and similarities. I can show more studies as the earlier one, but really don’t want to waste the time trying to defend them. If you are serious you can read the material available on the internet. Dr. Bruce Grayson of the University of Virginia has been collecting verified near death experiences for a long time, you might start there. Just a suggestion.
Here we have a drug induced near death experience that can be called real, in the opinion of researchers. Just more intertainment for some, learning for others.
I would find it a proof that someone had a given experience. As I said, I have no doubt that NDEs exist. I would NOT accept a personal experience as proof of something beyond the experience–e.g., that ghosts exist, or that members of a certain nationality are lazy or rude, or that life exists after death.
Can you understand that distinction? If you believe my reasoning is wrong, I would turn it around on you: do you accept people’s conclusions about, say, other ethnicities, based on their experiences with members of those ethnicities?
Or I could ask another question. I play lots of geeky games. I play with a lot of very rational people. These people become convinced that certain dice are “lucky” or “unlucky”, based on their experiences with those dice. Which is likelier: that certain hard-plastic polyhedra are lucky, or that people are poor intuitive statisticians?
I am not asking you to do so. I am asking you to follow through on, or retract, your claim that you can quote from this study (or one other one) passages of peer-reviewed research that support your claim that people experiencing NDEs can perceive certain things in a nonphysical fashion. I would ask you not to insult either of us by claiming that you won’t “waste the time” to do so. You said you could, you said you would. Please keep your word, or else retract your claim.
I am pleading, lekatt-do not post any more anonymous anecdotes. They cannot be verified, so they are totally useless as evidence. I’m sure that you can provide hundreds of them, just as I’m sure that there are thousands of people, out of the billions on this planet, that appreciate the chance to tell tales to people such as yourself knowing that they will be believed sight-unseen no matter how unlikely their story is. It brings excitement to their ordinary lives and makes them feel they are “special”.
Or else they’re just trolling, seeing how outrageous they can get before you’ll stop posting them.
And please, for the love of GOD, would you just answer my questions about the mentally ill. Or do you not believe it exists?
I can bring up hundreds/thousands of personal experiences about people who have been anally violated by aliens. Do you think that they truly were violated by aliens? Since there are multiple personal experiences by many people, are you saying that aliens exist and kidnap people to do anal probes?
Obviously, 400+ posts later, people aren’t ignoring you. They’re just infuriated that you don’t know the difference between fact and fiction. Or, at least the ability to provide facts, and separate them from fiction.
That’s the thing, though, lekatt. I’m asking for that evidence now. Or else I’ll dismiss the story as what it is: a story.
I, for instance, heard a story about a gentleman who had an OBE (I don’t actually know whether this gentleman was near death or not). This experience took place during one or several nights. The account initially seems to speak about three nights, but on his return the gentleman notices only one night had passed.
During one of this perceived nights, the gentleman is taken to his past and shown several events where he chose to neglect his loved one.
The second night shows him all the current event he’s missing because of his bad attitude.
The third night shows him where he’s headed if he doesn’t amend his ways.
The story concludes with him miraculously surviving the night and changing his evil ways.
Now: I don’t think this story was veridical. I can’t prove it, of course, but it still is a very nice and edifying story. Would you believe a story of this nature without questioning it?
Both statements are factually untrue. I have been on you about this one specific issue. I have made the criteria very clear. You have agreed that you could and would meet them. You have not done so.
If you believe you have met the criteria I have laid out since I have laid them out, please take the time to hit two buttons and three keys:
“Reply to this post.”
The three-digit number that identifies the post in which you believe you have met the criteria.
“Submit post.”
I believe that if you take the time to go back over your posts, looking for that post number, you will discover that your memory is faulty, that you have NOT done what you said you would do.
Go ahead–try it! If you’re right, it’ll take two mouseclicks and three keystrokes. If you’re wrong, it’s a chance for you to learn something about yourself, something every openminded person ought to want to do.
Daniel
Edit: I just saw post 474. The life-changing aspect mentioned in the study has NOTHING TO DO with what you said you would do. You said you would provide links to scientific research demonstrating nonphysical consciousness via perceptions during NDEs that could not otherwise be explained. Please keep your word, and please do not try to satisfy your claim with something so clearly irrelevant to your claim, interesting though it may be.
The only thing I want to know if a story/anecdote like the one I posted would be acceptable as evidence for OBE’s to you.
But I know, I know: none of our stories or experiences actually interest you. The only thing that interests you is to tell us your story and that we listen to them, with open mouths, licking up the immeasurable wisdom that drips from your jaws.
All the evidence you or anyone else needs to start their own study of near death experiences is in post no.425. If you ignore it, explain it away, then no further evidence however real will suffice to please you. There is an estimated twelve million people in the US that have experienced NDEs. Hundreds of thousands of these experiences are printed in books, magazines, on the web, and in other media. For years science has called these experiencers every name from ignorant to mentally ill. The time has come for the experiences to “come out” and stand for what they know is real and true. Science will find it harder and harder to censor these experiences, to suppress the data, and ignore the facts by using doctrine and other “made up” reasons why they are not acceptible. In the meantime honest scientists are hard at work with research and studies. It is only a matter of time. I will provide a link to many others studies and links. Use it if you can, pass it by if you must.