I’m not as clear on this portion of history as I used to be, but did not Tsarist Russia export grain? I remember reading that one of the Tsars economic problems was that he could not export grain through the black sea after the war started. If there was a surplus of grain grown inside russia, how did embargos cause famines?
I should hope so, since Lenin wrote an entire book, State and Revolution, in which he argued that the existing state machinery must be smashed. This means that the machinery or repression–the police, cops, courts, and prisons–must be dismantled. The working class must erect its own state, by arming all of the workers. Instead of special bodies of armed men, you have the whole armed people.
The Time article was quite humorous, but it failed to give any specific facts about which “murders” Lenin was responsible for. It drips with anti-communist hysteria, as, for example, in this little nugget:
“Lenin who set off artificial famine as a political weapon; Lenin who disbanded the last vestige of democratic government, the Constituent Assembly,”
Artificial famine? As a weapon? As a weapon against whom!? The famine in the Volga was the devastating result of 4 years of imperialist bloodletting, embargo and intervention. The mind reels at what kind of sick mind could think of that as being something the Bolsheviks did on purpose.
The constituent assembly as “the last vestige of democratic government”? That is laughable. Workers councils (soviets) were the most democratic organizations that have ever existed. Period. They encompassed all workers, soldiers and peasants, and were the means by which the working class exercised its dictatorship. The Bolsheviks came to power on the slogan, “All power to the Soviets!” They said all along, in particular in Lenin’s April Thesis, that the organization of state power in soviets was a higher type of state than bourgeois parliamentarism. The various parties of the capitalists screemd for a constituent assembly and a bourgeois parliament, but this was exactly what the soviets replaced.
The article from Time is a joke, from beginning to end. Apart from the bevy of anti-communist lies, it doesn’t deal with the question posed in this thread.
cite?
Sandino, You’re new here so let me explain what we deal in:
Facts.
References.
Citations.
Research.
Linking to marxism.org like that’s supposed to be some sort of unbiased source of information … well, I’d say that you might as well put on the floppy shoes and the red nose, except that in your case, you’re defending one of the planet’s more odious tyrants.
You are young, idealistic and somewhat intelligent. And you are flushing all that down the sewer to serve a broken statue. Sad.
Well, that must come later, since I haven’t seen any of that so far. All I have seen are wild accusations, backed up by, at best, links to a “historian” who is a laughing stock even in bourgeois academia. I was told that there were some serious people on this board, which is why I began posting. But, what I have found so far, almost universally, is that people simply regurgitate all of the vicious anti-communist lies they have been force-fed since birth. The fact that Lenin can be called the fourth worst mass murderer in history, and that this can pass as received wisdom, tells you that the population here is utterly lacking both in seriousness and integrity.
The above “quote” from Lenin is a perfect example. It comes from a Time article which does not give any references for where it came from. Fake Lenin quotes are a dime a dozen, but it is difficult to pass them off under any scrutiny, since virtually everything Lenin wrote, even including some scaps of paper he scribbled some notes on in meetings, has been published in his Collected Works.
Anyway, I anxiously await some facts, references and citations to back up the claim that Lenin was the fourth worst mass murderer in history.
I’m not entirely sure of my Russian history here, but I’m pretty cure that the Ukraine is the bread basket of Russia, and at the time they were thinking that they’d not like to be part of Red Russia. I believe that the Soviet state came, took all the grain, and let the Ukrainians starve until they got the point that they were part of the USSR whether they liked it or not.
Granted, I don’t have any citation for this, this is just something I remember reading. To say that the revolution was only that one day that 10 people died in invalidates all the White Russians who fought against the Red Russians in the civil war. Granted, they ight not have been fighting for the Tsar, but they were fighitng against the Soviets.
From Sandino
lol…I KNOW what the web site gives. I already looked at it. Glad you have now too. So, now do you understand the difference between battle deaths and deaths from executions/imprisonment? See that they are in separate categories, and that battle deaths aren’t being counted towards Lenin’s death toll for murder (i.e. Democide)?? Do you understand he (Rummell) makes the distinction? Do you see how stupid you were to compare Lincoln to Lenin because we are NOT talking about battle deaths that result from the civil war, but from deliberate killings via execution, deliberate starvation, etc?? Good.
Ok, now that this is straight (I have a funny feeling it ISN’T but will assume it is for now). What are your specific problems with the numbers? Do you have anything that refutes them?
From Sandino
Um…what exactly are you looking for here? Their names? What deaths do I attribute to Lenin? Well, thats pretty broad. In reference to this thread? The ones listed on line 50, and 52-78…as I already said. Did he kill them directly? No, he didn’t, if by that you mean did he personally pull the trigger. Is he responsible? Yep, he is. Are you saying he ISN’T responsible for executions and deaths in prison camps during his watch? Horseshit.
If you want to white wash history, fine…but you’ve been shown numbers and are disputing them based on your own retoric…I’ve yet to see proof one from YOU disputing the numbers. Rummell is lieing or full of shit? Fine, give me some cites that show that he is. Give me some counter numbers. DON’T however cite writings by Lenin or any other Marxist full of retoric…don’t make long retorical speeches of your own. Instead, give us some cites with real numbers from a credible source. Rummell IS considered a credible source, but if you dispute him and his assertions, give some of your own.
Here’s a hint…your cites from speeches from various Marxist writers are not valid proofs of anything…except the fact that the writer can toss around the retoric. It doesn’t help your case when all you do is write detailed retorical screeds in response. Show us some counter numbers, or some kind of credible proof that Lenin didn’t in fact order or tacitly approve the deaths of millions of his fellow country men/women/children either via execution or via starvation in various prison camps. You seem so sure so you MUST have such cites at your finger tips…bring those puppies out.
From Sandino
sigh Its all in the cite, but you refuse to read it and actually LOOK at it. As I can’t figure out how to cut and paste from that document to this, I can’t SHOW you the relevant sections…only point them out. You will actually have to go look for yourself.
There is a low, mean and high range for all numbers, I guess thats how he’s doing his estimate of error. If I’m misreading this, someone correct me…its getting late here.
From the web site you refuse to look at yourself:
Famine…line 185: 1 million 5 million 7.5 million Attributed to Democide by Rummell…50%
Disease…line 186: 2 million 2.3 million 3 million Attributed to Democide by Rummell…0%
Camp/Transit Dead…line 183: 12,000 34,000 72,000 Attributed to Democide by Rummell…100%
Red Terror Dead…line 182: 250k 500k 3.65 million Attributed to Democide by Rummell…100%
Rebellious Dead…line 181: 140k 500k 1.3 million Attributed to Democide by Rummell…50%
Civil War Dead…line 180: 800k 1.1 million 2 million Attributed to Democide by Rummell…0%
Internation War Dead…line 179: 60k 60k 60k Attributed to Democide by Rummell…0%
Democide total, line 194: 8.32k 3.284 million 8.122 million
Sorry for any errors in translating this data from the web site…had to type this in manually. Its probably a waste of my time, but there it is. I attribute ALL of the democide deaths to Lenin. WHy? Because he was in charge. You can and will dispute that I’m sure. Fine by me. If you dispute the numbers give us better ones please…not rants or retoric.
-XT
OK, just so that we are perfectly clear here, you agree with this lunatic Rummell (who IS a laughing stock) that 50% of deaths due to famine are to be considered murdered by Lenin? Even leaving aside the inflated figures this guy uses, this is slightly … INSANE, but let’s hear how you justify that one.
In addition, you attribute 100% of those killed by the Red Terror, which is given absolutely insane figures, by the way, as being murdered by Lenin? Do you even know what the Red Terror was? Kindly explain why the Red Terror does not count as a defensive act.
Also, could you explain how many of the deaths in the civil war can be attributed to Churchill and Wilson? In fact, there would have been virtually no deaths if it hadn’t been for the intervention of the imperialists. The White Armies wouldn’t have lasted more than a few weeks without massive support from the capitalist powers.
This really gets to the heart of the matter. The anti-communist liars like this nutball Rummell, would lead you to believe that Lenin was a dictator. Of course, that is utter rubbish. All of this goes to obscure the fact that the revolution was made by the workers of Russia, and that it was the Russian workers who fought and died in the Civil War. In fact, their fighting was unbelievably heroic, as it came on the heels of the inter-imperialist bloodbath.
The outrageous lies and slanders that are thrown around the Bolsheviks are merely an expression of the hatred they inspired in the imperialists. This hatred was due to the fact that the Russian workers committed the cardinal sin, the sin against property.
Of course, they can’t come right out and say that. And none of the people on this board have had the honesty to admit that their hostility to Marxism is at bottom, fear and hatred of the working people of the world. It is much better to demonize the leaders.
I have to say, I am very disappointed. I thought that people would be able to come up with something better than Rummell, or at least admit that Cecil is an unprincipled lapdog.
Ad hominems are all well and good, but this being GD and all, I am going to have to ask for a reference to support those allegations.
Sandino:
I’m so very sorry to read that we have disappointed you.
Please don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
*Originally posted by Sandino *
Not true - not every single person on this board is hostile to Marxism. I attempted to counter the validity of your position regarding Leninism-Marxism from an anarchist perspective. Need I remind you again of the Makhnovites in the Ukraine? What say you of Bakunin? Emma Goldman? Maletesta? Kropotkin? Elisee Recleus? Proudhon? Anarcho-Syndicalists and those who fought for worker’s freedom in Spain?
And, yes, you can rant on endlessley about how anarchists aren’t “realistic” or “think that communism can be created overnight” and all of the other distortions that you and your ilk spout (not you, Olentzero) regarding anarchism. Because anarchists would contend that it is YOU, Sandino at the very bottom of it all, have a fear and hatred of the working class.
God I’m sick of hearing how 10 people died in the revolution. That’s not what we’re talking about!!! You admit Hitler is responsible for the death camp murders, are you saying he pulled the trigger on each victim?
Lenin, in an attempt to quash any resistance, did what he had to to “tame” the locals. The Ukranians were especially hard hit by having their entire stock of food stolen, leaving them to starve. THIS IS THE REASON MY ANCESTORS LEFT FOR AMERICA!!!
What I find interesting is that we’re arguing over Lenin, when Stalin was much worse.
I hope they’ve been able to meet up in the 80th circle of Hell
I’ll just lean in here one more time to thank Sandino for all the entertainment, and for educating all who read this thread on how not to argue a point. It’s been very instructive.
Sandino,
That was a cite.
You dismiss Time as being crap without a second thought.
Well, that’s what I do to Marxist drones.
When you start your revolution, I’ll be one of the screwheads putting you down. Shoot me first. Or try.
Stalin was worse mainly because he had a very long time to kill people. Lenin lost the “who’s the worst murderer in history” contest mainly because he died too soon. In terms of their willingness to murder people to further their goals, there wasn’t a gnat’s bit of difference between them. Both were monsters.
This reminds me of “my post is my cite” Aldarbaran. I ask you for hard numbers and NO retoric, instead you give me more retoric and NO hard numbers. Honesly, its I who am disappointed…I feel like I wasted my time on you. Oh well…such is life. I’m going to spew some retoric back at you later in the program.
Just to have some fun now:
From Sandino
Am I supposed to take your word that Rummell is a lunatic and a laughing stock? Sure. Inflated figures, huh? You’ve proved your case well by giving me whats been repeatedly asked of you…namely counter figures. Again, you are doing well here…NOT! 
Yep, I sure DO give the credit for 50% of the deaths to your buddy, Lenin. Why? Because he was in charge bone head. People died of starvaton in the Civil War in the US (didn’t happen on any kind of scale btw) then Lincoln would be responsible for his half of the problem with Jeff being responsible for the other half. Responsible for the deaths…get it? Of course you don’t.
From Sandino
Ya, I know EXACTLY what the Red Terror was. Do you? Of course you don’t…you don’t know shit about HISTORY, only what you read in your Marxist rah rah books. Thats shockingly obvious to everyone…but you. Want to take a shot at why Lenin/Bolshevik’s were NOT 100% responsible for their actions? Reguardless of whether they did what they did because they felt they were forced too, they are still RESPONSIBLE for the deaths, and you denying that is utter bullshit. You know it…I know it. You are merely rationalizing their actions, saying the ends justifies the means. Again…you know it…I know it.
From Sandino
You keep ranting about this. People have already shown you are full of shit, that the “14” nations had little impact overall on the situation, with the possible acception of keeping the White armys in the field longer than they would have been. Tell you what…why don’t YOU get off your butt, do some research, and cite how many of the over all deaths are attributable to Churchill and Wilson. Lets see some hard numbers and reputable cites showing the impact the ‘allies’ had, how many deaths can be attributed to them, etc.
From Sandino
Are you saying Lenin was not in charge but was just kind of there, in the back ground, with the other ‘workers and peasants’?? Cite! Cite!! Cite!!! Lets see it Sandino. lol, I know you won’t actually bring anything out, its more a retorical question on my part…its like expecting Aldarbaran to produce a cite.
From Sandino
And you’ve shown this how? Are we expected to take your word for all that? You’ve been asked, repeatedly, to back up your outrageous statements, and so far you’ve provided…nothing. All you do is spew forth retoric, with no content. Maybe that works on the proles you are used to dazzling with your bullshit, but it doesn’t fly here. If you want to make a case, back it up and lay off the retoric.
From Sandino
Too funny. “Pity me, everyone is hostile to Marxism for no good reason”. I’m not hostile to Marxism you fool. Why would I be? Its a failed system thats almost completely discredited, except for the few delusional and rabid adherents left (such as yourself). Its had its chance on the world arena, and categorically its failed miserably. Its brought nothing but brutality, death, and economic ruin where ever it came. Its completely ridiculous for you to say that it hasn’t worked because its not all over the world.
My turn for a brief speech. I’ll remind you that there was another revolutionary government some 200 odd years ago (soft music in the background, maybe the national anthem or something classical like Canon). This government started off in a very hostile environment as well, and had to throw off a REAL imperial power, the greatest power in the world in fact, not some half assed Tzarist overlords and a collection of ‘allies’ totally exhausted from WWI, to win its independance. Compared to Europe, this fledgling nation was poor and fairly technically backward (fierce determined look now). There were NO other democracies at its time of its inception, as the French had lost their revolution to a dictator.
In this environment, with limited man power and resources, and no other democratic nations on earth, this nation FLURISHED (eyes shinning). They made a ton of mistakes and fuckups along the way (which they acknowledged btw, and continue to acknowledge…lol, can you imagine a board like this in a COMMUNIST state?), but they kept plodding along, TRYING to fix the most agregious wrongs (and continue to do so to this day)…and we didn’t have to kill millions of their fellow citizens to do it, nor did they have to curtail their basic rights. And, by example perhaps, or maybe just because it was time for man to progress to the REAL next level in government (namely social-democracy), many other countries followed suit…and where there was one, now there are many. Even France, which backslid after their revolution has rejoined the ranks of a government system that WORKS.
And they are now that nation, all alone and isolated in a world of dictators and monarchys with no one to guide them, no other democracies to help or nurture them (violins here), is at the pinicle of the world…the ONLY superpower on earth (brief tears of thanks and appreciation here, with a far away look as if into the future).
In case it hasn’t dawned on you (ok, I know it has but I’m having fun with my own bullshit retoric here) I’m talking about The United States of America (which you call Racist America…as if you know what the fuck you are talking about as far as racism goes).
So, Sandino, looked at objectively…which system do you suppose most people feel is the better one?
Ok, have to admit this one was fun. Have at it Sandino.
-XT
Well, it’s my obsession with the Romanovs, but I know what you mean.
My point is that even innocents were not spared. And yes, Lenin pretty much ordered the execution of the family-including the children.
The’s a tendency in the hagiography of Communists and their sympathizers to spin the story as:
Good Czar Lenin started the revolution. It was headed towards a worker’s paradise till it was hijacked by the usurping non-Communist tyrant Stalin. With aberrant Stalin out of the picture, Communism is still a path to the worker’s paradise.
This is essentially what Kruschev said in his ‘Secret Speech’ Now, admittedly, Stalin did kill more people. Partly because of his paranoia, partly because of the length of his reign (which probably had something to do with his paranoia) and partly because he carried Communism to its logical totalitarian conclusion.
Essentially, the claim that Lenin wasn’t a democide is a claim that Communism isn’t rotten to the core, whereas the claim that he is a democide is a claim that it is.
Excellent posts, xtisme and HayekHeyst. All that needs to be added is the moral framework imposed on history by Marxists.
They are usually up front that they intend to rob and murder the representatives of the existing social democracies. Once they feel themselves strong enough, they make their bid for power.
If those committed to the existing social order do not resist, they are murdered and all that they have built is appropriated. If they do resist, they are murdered anyway, but all the murders are then blamed on those who resisted, rather than those who committed the murders and robbery.
I try to kill you and your supporters. If you fight back, it is your fault for resisting. If you don’t, your death can be easily hushed up.
It’s a neat little moral escape clause.
Regards,
Shodan