From reading this thread, sounds like NinetyWt is, and most of her jobs are from people other than “Moe & Joe Co”
Obviously, NinetyWt has made HER reputation and is getting sufficient jobs outside of Moe & Joe Co to support herself.
Why the HELL would the owner of a successful business (NinetyWt) want to go back to being someone’s subordinate? NinetyWt is apparently doing well enough even in these times, she’s not looking to cut back her hours or retire, becoming an employee at this point is a stupid move. Why give up her autonomy?
And stock options? That only works if it’s a publicly traded company. A two-man partnership seldom is. This sounds like a small business where stock options just don’t exist.
No, Moe is being insulting. Clearly, although she is running a successful business he does not see her as an equal, a fellow business person, but rather hired help. An offer of partnership was made, then swapped with one to become a mere employee. If I was NinetyWt I’d take it as a real slap in the face. On a certain level it doesn’t matter if Moe did this deliberately or unintentionally, it’s a faux pas at best and at worst a sign that if she did enter into a partnership it’s likely that he’d treat her with less than respect, one of those situation where one person does all the heavy lifting and the other basks in the glory and takes credit for someone else’s hard work.
That ignores the fact that if she becomes an employee she can be fired after Moe takes ALL her business and clients, leaving her with nothing. I’m sure she wants that even less. She wasn’t looking for a job under Moe’s umbrella, he approached her. With his partner retiring, it’s Moe that needs her. She’s already stated that she can survive the loss of Moe as a client. Let me repeat that - Moe & Joe Co are her customer, not her employer, when she is operating as a subcontracting business. She doesn’t have to take this “offer”. Given that she would go from being the boss to being a subordinate it seems to me she’d be foolish to do that.
You know, given that Moe’s partner is retiring and he doesn’t feel he can handle the business perhaps NinetyWt should make him an offer - offer to hire him as the employee!
True. I’ve been thinking of that since yesterday. I certainly don’t want to get caught up in a bad relationship, and ruin our friendship.
Agreed. If he brings it up again, I’m going to have to insist on retaining a lawyer to help us.
Well, both the other subcontractor and I took it as a real offer, although I reckon it’s possible that he was just running his mouth. I think I will talk to the other sub about this controlling interest issue, thanks for pointing it out.
That is a good point, thank you.
Very well said, Broomstick. You explained it much more clearly than I did.
… Okay, no-one’s said the blatantly obvious here, so I will.
Go talk to your other subcontractor. Tell him about Moe being clueless. Cause he probably is, from your description of him. Not malicious, just clueless. Get a unified front.
Then gently but firmly point out to Moe that the idea of becoming his employee may be best for him, but not for you or the other guy. In fact, it would be pretty bad for you and the other guy, and neither of you thinks that’s the way to go.
If he protests, ‘but my accountant said’, then point out the accountant is working for him, not you, and it just is not a workable idea for you. Ask him how committed he is to this new concept, point out that you’d much rather go back to the original way.
What E-Sabbath said. Also, point out to him that his accountant’s job is to tell him how to make the most money legally – not to give legal or business-management advice. Ask him if he’d be comfortable giving you his customer base and current contracts and working for you for as long as you choose to employ him for whatever you choose to pay him. When he, shocked, says no, point out that’s just what he’s asking of you. Clueless may not understand nuance, but usually grasps fairness. That’s a way of bringing it across to him without angering him, IMO.
as you said though, your best next step is probably to bring in a lawyer and look at everything.
If you are confident you can pick up the contracts without their partnership, then other then keeping a corporate name, why hook up with them?
Good luck on negotiations, seems you are about to enter into the next phase of your enterprise. You are obviously putting alot of thought into it, and that s pretty much what you have to do.
You think the guy is “nice” and “doesn’t have a head for business”, but he knows damn well that’s a screw deal and he’s a complete prick for trying that bullshit on you.
I went back and looked for that old thread where Moe first said anything about partnering. It was from January 10th of this year:
So I’ve been expecting a partner offer for 10 months. No wonder it pissed me off so much!
Also, from reading that thread, I think I can’t add so well. :-/
I’m both a (female) lawyer and an environmental consultant who subcontracts to a company very similar to the one OP describes, run by an older man who wants to retire.
Unfortunately, the OP is making the same kind of mistake that many women in business make. They think that if they are nice and giving and nurturing in the business relationship, the person they are doing business with will feel obligated to give them what is fair. Unfortunately, that is not how it works.
I think the OP needs to learn to stand up for herself and negotiate like a businessperson–not pout because the other business owner is trying to get the best possible deal for himself. This is how business works. I think Moe or whatever his name is realizes that the OP is too timid to play hardball and is trying to take advantage.
My own senior citizen boss is also very nice-seeming and knowledgeable, and we are even friends in private life. But at work, he is a businessman, and when I started working for him, he offered me an employment “deal” that was a lot of advantage for him and very little for me. Instead of complaining about my disappointment, I made a counter-offer, and we negotiated something that had advantages for both of us, and that required each of us to give a little.
If you’re going to run your own business, you need to “man up” and learn to negotiate to get what you want. I know this sounds harsh, but it’s intended as friendly advice from one who knows. Our businesses sound similar, and if you want (non-legal) advice, I’d be happy to PM about this.
This. Regardless of his intentions, he made an insulting offer to the two of you. If you join up with him, the next insulting offer he makes is going to have your name attached to it. If you join up and leave him with a controlling interest in the reorganized venture, there won’t be a damn thing you can do about it.
If you really want a partner, talk to the other sub about a partnership between the two of you. You can continue to do the work that Moe has to farm out, and you’ll go into the partnership on an equal footing - something that’s never going to happen with Moe.
It’s just that your OP sounded to me like you were defeated or giving up. Complaining is fine, and something I do a lot of. But I hope you are viewing this as Round One of negotiations, and not as The End. After all, it sounds like you are going to have some sort of relationship with this man and his company regardless. I hope that your first move was to rant, and your second move will be to make a counteroffer.
With another subcontractor involved, my first thought was, “has he told this other person the same thing?” I’m worried that both of you may have been manipulated all along by this guy. But that’s just me.
You don’t need him. You (or you and the other sub) need to put on a big marketing push, starting yesterday, as his business organically winds down. He is just looking for an annuity, and you are not required to provide it. Got a kid? That’s who needs to benefit from your labors…
Well thank you mswas. I aim to please.
I appreciate everybody’s input; it surely is nice to be able to get serious comments which cut to the heart of the matter. I’m glad that I posted this rant; the responses have really opened my eyes to some things which I was ignoring. Thank you all.
You: "So Moe, your accountant told you that it would be better for you to have a shitton of money versus splitting it with two other people? Wow. Genius that guy must be. Come to think of it, my accountant told ME the same thing, so maybe I can hire you…
Perhaps you misunderstood what was meant by “joining their firm” Being hired as an employee is technically joining the firm, is it not?
Even so, it sounds like Moe is trying to take advantage of you. Having you as an employee would let him ease into retirement while still milking the company (and your work) for money. This would be fair if he were providing an essential ingredient and your relative skill sets were highly unequal (e.g., he owned a McDonald’s franchise and you flipped burgers), but it sounds like you are closer to being peers.
One approach is to sit down and discuss what everyone would bring to the table and what everyone would take away. Focus on seeing if a partnership and/or employment arrangement would actually increase the size of the pie, or if it would just change how it is being sliced. If the pie is not getting any bigger, it is unlikely you would be better off (as it would have to come at the expense of another party).
The important thing here is to talk to the other subcontractor, though. Because if you two are united, he can’t play the two of you off each other. So get on the same page with him, first.
Maybe you want to go partners with him and keep Moe as a client. Can Moe go anywhere else?
My friend is an environmental engineer. He had been an employee of a firm for years, which included bringing in new clients, etc. After he’d proven himself (and the partners realized that it would be a threat to their business if he left), he was invited to become a partner. But he had to buy into the practice, which in his case meant taking out a home equity loan for $250,000. The partnership wasn’t just handed to him; he had to put some skin in the game.
Now this situation is different from the OPer’s because my friend was an employee first, which meant that any clients he brought in were owned by the corporation and not him personally. The OPer has more leverage because she has her own established book of business, as does the third sub-contractor.
Complicating the matter is the fact that Moe is retiring.
It seems to me that before Joe can even talk about a new partnership, he should dissolve his current partnership. He and Moe can hash out what a fair price would be for Joe absorbing all of the existing business. Once that is settled, then you can talk about what a fair buy-in price would be, based on your current assets. I, personally, would buy-in to a full partnership before I’d accept a minor stake (based on the % that I bring in to the combined business) because I’d want everyone to be equally invested in the success of the new business.
