eleanorigby–what many may be trying to say, and what many people are hanging their hat on, is the fact that she is not, technically, brain dead. Just as you point out that PVS does not equal coma, neither equals brain death.
I think it is important to make this distinction, though it is just as important to note that she is not any more conscious or able to participate in her life than if she were actually brain dead. It’s also important to note that the part of her brain responsible for who she is is, in fact, dead and gone. But a certain degree of accuracy in terminology is necessary here, even though the other side doesn’t appear all that interested in petty matters like “truth” or “accuracy”.
wrong. The courts have already determined what TS would have wanted, due to testimony from more than just her next of kin. What makes you think that if it’d been in writing anything would be different? the parents in this case are also alledging that in her last days prior to the event, she’d had a resurgence of Catholocism, and with the Pope RECENT position wrt removal of feeding tubes, therefore TS"s “real” wishes would have been to continue w/it.
The parents don’t believe that it was her wish. But they’re not the next of kin. None of the entities involved so far (Florida legislators, Florida departments, governors, House of Reps, Senate, President, parents, etc) have standing to deny the right of the next of kin.
Living in Florida ive been hearing about this poor woman for over a decade, i was hoping her husbands ordeal would end soon. So what does this mean anyways, is the feeding tube back in? Thats what that quote from Tom Delay makes it sound like, but ive heard nothing about it being put back.
It sounds like the House will pass the bill on Sunday and Bush will sign it, which I assume means there will be months more of eventually-rejected court appeals and cases, and then another feeding tube removal before someone else tries to circumvent the courts again.
Yup, if this idiotic bill passes and is signed, the Schindlers will have recourse to the Federal courts. Immediately upon filing, they will be able to get a restraining order to have the tube reinserted.
If she isn’t coming back, can anyone explain to me why the fuck she blew up in my face?
It is the opinion of every intelligent person in this thread that Terri Schiavo’s cerebral cortex, her high brain, is no longer functional. Am I wrong in that notion?
Terri Schiavo’s brain is not completely dead, to the point that she can breathe without a respirator and blink her eyes and her intestines still practice peristalsis. I know I’m not wrong in this.
However, Terri Schiavo as a person is dead. The personality and everything else that defines a living person is encoded by the high brain and, therefore, once the high brain is dead the person is dead.
There is some confusion on the apparent disconnect between the above two paragraphs. How can a breathing body not be a living body? My response to that is that cellular death has little to do with mental death.
And, what’s confusing me about eleanorigby’s response is that she apparently agrees with me about all of the above. Yet she still blew up in my face.
The existence of a living will is not an absolute and perfect guarantee that your wishes will be followed. However, having one is far better protection against the actions of overwrought and berserk relatives than if one has to rely on the word of others as to what they think you wanted.
To me, that’s the great value of having this case in the news. Get to work on advance directives, if you don’t want to be a human shuttlecock in a loony game of badminton between warring relatives.
Jack in this case, the parents, who don’t have standing, have managed to thwart the courts who have determined what Terri’s last wishes would be. I don’t believe that the existence of a piece of paper would have made any difference to them. this case is not about “what Terri really would have wanted” that’s not what the legislature’s actions are doing. they’re removing the case to Federal court review, not based on “what really would Terri’s wishes are” but “what is her condition”. they can drag this out for decades this way, there will always be some fucking physician somewhere who would claim that their treatment might work.
If she isn’t coming back, can anyone explain to me why the fuck she blew up in my face?
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Because there’s a serious disconnect between her brain and her keyboard.
My 79-year-old mom and I just had a conversation this morning in which we expressed our mutual horror and disgust at Terri not having been let go years ago. We both made it clear to each other that we would not want to be treated the way her parents have treated her.
Neither in this case nor in the other celebrated “right to die” cases (such as that of Nancy Cruzan in 1990) did the individual in the vegetative state have a living will or other advance directive making clear their views on the subject of prolonging life in these circumstances.
“Problems” with living wills (according to a recent Univ. of Michigan study) include the fact that far too few people have them drawn up, that people often change their minds about care as their physical condition deteriorates, or that living wills sometimes are not written clearly enough. None of this alters the fact that you are far more likely to prevent something like the Schiavo disaster from occurring if you have a legal document prepared, clearly stating your wishes.
Your anger about the current situation should not lead you into poorly substantiated speculation about the uselessness of advance directives.
you failed to address my post, although you quoted it. The issue, as far as Congress, Florida legislature, Florida governor etc. has not been “what were Terri’s true wishes” A living will etc, will only ‘make clear’ what some one’s true wishes are. However, the parents are arguing that even though courts have decided what Terri’s ‘true wishes’ were, that Terri would have changed her mind. Having had it in writing would not alter that.
In addition, not one of the groups I mentioned (legislators, governors, congress et al) have discussed at all the issue of "what were Terri’s true wishes’, but rather "what is Terri’s real condition, can she be treated’
Therefore, even w/a “living will” signed, sealed and notarized, the actions of the legislators et al could still potentially happen.
Without a living will, the ‘next of kin’ has authorization to speak on the person’s part. Her husband is next of kin and has spoken. All of these actions thwart that will.
which would potentially include a living will. Unless you can point out where these fucking legislators are saying “we don’t believe that Terri really would have wanted the plug pulled” the issue of a living will is not the issue at point here. good luck finding that.
what I see is that anyone who has some nutso relative w/pull and money, can trump your personal wishes, via the legislators. this is wrong on so many moral levels.
Every time that I think we’ve hit the bottom level of the pit of stupidity, somebody digs a level deeper.
Isn’t it great to see that our politicians have the best interests of the american people at heart. Social security reform? Budget problems? Who has time for that? Baseball palyers may be using steroids and there’s a woman without a cerebral cortex who’ll die without our help. :smack:
And dear sweet Bo Gritz. He’s something of a cult figure up here in militia country. He’s gone from paranoid whack job to symbolic savior of non life… :smack: :smack:
I’m sorry for the lack of swearing. I used up all of it when I heard about the “bread and water” protest. Feel free to insert profanity wherever appropriate. Hell, throw it in even where it isn’t.
wring, once again, in none of these highly publicized cases had the patients at the center of the dispute expressed their wishes via a living will/advanced directive.
Similarly, I know of no case where a person in a vegetative state who had previously made clear his/her wishes in a legal document, was treated as a political football or trophy in a struggle between relatives in this fashion.
Rather than do nothing and fulminate about the injustice in the Schiavo case, I suggest practical action.
Rant on as you please.
marley --what are you on about? I didn’t address any of my bile to you.
I am on the “same side” as you–TS should have been allowed to die years ago.
No, she is no longer with us, in any sense, except that her heart is still beating and her lungs are still functioning etc. She is not human as we undestand it–yeah, I’m with you.
Lordy-if we can’t stand together, we will surely go down–and I think we are completely fucked, my emails to my senators to the contrary.
I find it humorlessly ironic that the party that shouts and demands that the federal Gment stay out of the private lives of individuals is the one that is disrespecting our legal system and our individual rights.
Sorry for the pissy posts–this has been one bad day here in the Rigby household.(not b/c of this, but other stuff).
When they say “private lives” what they really mean is “private financial lives” (when it comes to paying taxes for non-miilitary government functions) Your actual personal life, however, is fair game.
This is why I blew up at you. For the record, I would never walk off a bb in high dudgeon–give me some credit. I meant that I am sick and tired of repeating myself.
For you to come in, and accuse me of NOT reading or understanding the topic at hand made me royally pissed. If you had read any of my posts, you would have known that I am firmly in the camp that believes in letting TS go. I am very well aware of the differences between PVS and coma. And yes, brain dead is yet another condition.
I have reread my recent posts and realized that I was using the term brain dead–I didn’t even realize it. Sorry about the inaccuracy–I can only claim a complete brain overload today with RL intruding too much here.
I find myself so concerned about how this(the TS thing) will pan out–I am almost frightened by the turn this whole debacle has taken. How has our Gment gotten so incredibly warped? How is this even a focus for pols? I haven’t felt this badly shaken by national news since the election, frankly, and I am getting a bit too intense about it all. Luckily, I am working tomorrow, so will not have the opportunity to rip anyone else another one…(where is the sheepish smiley?)
But, Derleth --please make sure that your reprimands are correctly targeted.
eleanorigby, I wasn’t being snarky and I wasn’t reprimanding you and I wasn’t implying a thing beyond the fact that I’m not interested in debating when the other person is ignorant of basic facts.
I should have read the thread more closely and noticed that you are an RN who works with these people. On the converse, you should tone down your responses and never assume that someone meant offense unless you have a damned good reason to think otherwise.
If you get to make statements about yourself, so do I: I don’t pick up on social cues well and sometimes I get baffled when I apparently have offended someone. Social interaction is a game and I don’t know all the rules. Maybe this is an undiagnosed, extremely mild case of Autism or Asperger’s, maybe this is simply because I don’t get out much or make very many friends. If you think I have meant offense in a post, you are probably wrong unless I’m obviously flaming someone.
And all this makes me once again reconsider my practice of including parting lines in my posts.
Because they are lying or in deep denial about her condition. Also, the court that heard the evidence on her wishes sided with her husband’s account, finding little credit in her parents accounts or the doctors they had hired.
At this point, because her husband has demonstrated more sanity than her parents.
But legally and morally, Terri chose to marry Michael. Under law, this means Michael is her guardian and can make decisions that affect her health if she is no longer able to. Morally speaking, Terri wished to spend her life with Michael and they both pledged to care for each other and always keep each others’ best interests at heart. The vows of marriage should not be broken lightly, and they damned well should not be broken by outsiders.
I’m sure Terri’s parents love her and want what they think is best for her. Unfortunately, they no longer have a useful grasp on what’s best and refuse to accept that their daughter died 15 years ago. Her husband understands this, and as difficult as it was for him he accepted it. Therefore, her husband knows what’s best for her and her parents do not.