[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Me and IIRC at least one other; I don’t have the energy to reread the whole thread to find out who.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, ok. I take it back then.
[QUOTE=JThunder]
None. That’s precisely the point. These gents DO agree on the basics of theism. The points that they disagree on are by no means essential to theism itself. For this reason, it’s foolish to suggest that their disagreement on such matters somehow undermines the case for theism.
[/QUOTE]
And yet again, what are these basics that they all supposedly agree on?
You say that they all agree that they worship God-I say that they each individually worship separate gods. Show me that they worship the same basic god, please.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
You say that they all agree that they worship God-I say that they each individually worship separate gods. Show me that they worship the same basic god, please.
[/QUOTE]
Kinda hard to demonstrate the proof you’re looking for. Are you expecting the Muslim and the Christian to say “come out, Mr God, please” and have gasp! the same Omnipotent Deity step out from behind the curtain?
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
And yet again, what are these basics that they all supposedly agree on?
You say that they all agree that they worship God-I say that they each individually worship separate gods. Show me that they worship the same basic god, please.
[/QUOTE]
I agree that they do not all worship God; I think either JThunder’s wrong on that or he just put it badly. But he is right in that they are all in agreement in terms of basic theism; to be a theist, all you need to do is believe that one god exists. That god doesn’t have to be the same one as anyone else. A Christian, Muslim, Jew, are all theists in that they all agree in a single god. That’s the “basic” they all agree on, and it’s the only one required for theism.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
I say that they each individually worship separate gods. Show me that they worship the same basic god, please.
[/QUOTE]
Question: Would you say that you, I, and the rest of us Dopers all believe in the same basic universe, or that we individually believe in separate universes?
[QUOTE=jsc1953]
Kinda hard to demonstrate the proof you’re looking for. Are you expecting the Muslim and the Christian to say “come out, Mr God, please” and have gasp! the same Omnipotent Deity step out from behind the curtain?
[/QUOTE]
No. Yet again, I ask for the basics traits of God that all three theists agree on.
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Question: Would you say that you, I, and the rest of us Dopers all believe in the same basic universe, or that we individually believe in separate universes?
[/QUOTE]
That has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked, unless you are going for the “God is the universe, therefore if you believe that we are all in the same universe, you must believe that we all worship the same God!” argument.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
That has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked, unless you are going for the “God is the universe, therefore if you believe that we are all in the same universe, you must believe that we all worship the same God!” argument.
[/QUOTE]
I was hoping your answer would help me understand what you meant by “the same.”
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Question: Would you say that you, I, and the rest of us Dopers all believe in the same basic universe, or that we individually believe in separate universes?
[/QUOTE]
I would not even presume to comment on whether all the dopers believe in a singular and shared universe-how could I possibly know?
Here’s a good reason the OP matters. Three theists get together and supposedly agree on one thing-that the atheist is wrong. I say “supposedly” for this reason-if the atheist asked each theist separately which religion he should convert to and why, what do you suppose the answer would be? Do you think for one instant that, if he thought that the other theists were out of earshot, he would say,“It really doesn’t matter what religion you follow because there is no true one path to God, just so long as you follow some religion.”? Somehow, I have my doubts. IMO, the only things they have in common is the use of the word “God” and a need to temporarily band together against the current common enemy.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
That has absolutely nothing to do with the questions I have asked, unless you are going for the “God is the universe, therefore if you believe that we are all in the same universe, you must believe that we all worship the same God!” argument.
[/QUOTE]
Now you’re seeing the light! 
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I agree that they do not all worship God; I think either JThunder’s wrong on that or he just put it badly. But he is right in that they are all in agreement in terms of basic theism; to be a theist, all you need to do is believe that one god exists.
[/QUOTE]
And to be an atheist, all you have to do is *disbelieve *that one god exists.
How many Catholics, would you say, believe in Zeus? How could they? Are they not then, by definition, atheists?
Actually, i’d define atheism as a lack of belief in any gods, not just one particular one. Just being an atheist from disbelieving in one god isn’t a definition i’ve heard of before. I suppose you could say that a Catholic is atheistic in belief towards Zeus, but that wouldn’t make them an atheist in my book.
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
Actually, the basic subject of this thread is whether or not theists have a right to criticize atheists when they don’t agree with each other 100%.
[/QUOTE]
Since I am the author of the OP that began this thread, would you please show me where I said 100%? What I am saying is that a panel of theists made up of a Muslim, a Protestant and a Catholic all got together to criticize Richard Dawkins who had just been interviewed.
So you you are now saying that I said that theists had to agree 100% before they criticize atheists? Take that you straw man. And that! Take that! You beat the straw out of bastard, Lord Ashtar.
Please go back and read my OP and my other posts on this thread. I am talking about differences so elemental and essential that if one is right the other must be wrong. For example, God is triune and had a son, or God is not triune and had no son. And yet these theists sit there shaking their heads at Dawkins for refusing to recognize the “truth”. WHAT fucking truth??? These guys can’t even agree on what the truth is from one guy to the next!
[QUOTE=Princhester]
cosmodan, the basic subject of this thread is whether or not a god or gods exist. Your position as I understand it is that it should be an individual matter based upon ones own experiences up to and including the voices in one’s head. So that’s the end of the debate for you isn’t it? Whatever anyone says is their personal experience leading to their personal decision about theism/atheism is valid for you, so what more can anyone say to you on the topic?
[/QUOTE]
I think a healthy discussion about things we don’t agree on is a necessary part of society, and personal growth. At some point, as long as people aren’t harming us in some way, we let people choose their own path and there’s no need to beleaguer each each other because of those differences. Better to realize that varied perspectives have the potential to enrich us.
The other issue is the inevitable conflict that arises when people interact with each other. Believer or non believer we have some sort of belief system or value system from which our choices arise. Those choices affect the lives of others and when that happens we can expect them to respond. That interaction, sometimes pleasant and sometimes not, challenges our belief system directly and indirectly.
If an atheist or believer is a good person I celebrate their positive influence. If either are selfish pricks in their behavior I’ll probably tell them what I think.
That seems accurate. Keep in mind that I don’t accept my beliefs as absolute either. The correct term seems to be provisional beliefs. I act on what I believe to be true right now knowing that the next moment may bring an experience that changes my belief to some degree.
Please see Tomndebb’s post about debating the contents of a TV show we haven’t seen. Here are two very good reason why:
Cite?
Cite? Not all theists see atheists as enemies nor do all theists see them as “wrong.” It is possible for a theist to believe in God and to make no judgment about what the atheist should believe.
Oh, I don’t think that many fundamentalists have any trouble telling liberal Christians that we are “wrong.” Liberals think they are “mistaken.” 
Seriously, some folks are finally walking up to the “non-judgment clause” in the teachings. That’s healthy – not “pc.”
This is not just directed at you, but two or three of you use the words proof and proven in a really casual way. We are not talking math here. Are you speaking about logically proven?
I don’t remember a lot of Christians here talking about hearing voices in their heads. Some Christians do. But there is the possibility that that is a sort of metaphor for what they experienced. Do you remember my telling you that describing these experiences is impossible? Saul Bellow said that at these times language becomes inadequate.
I will own up to the “feelings from out of nowhere.” Long years ago when feelings of euphoria were herb induced and feelings came from “out of nowhere,” we called it a headrush. This was just more intense.
Never in my adult life have I minded atheists not believing in God. I’ve not been disrespectful about it or claimed that I couldn’t be wrong myself. But some of you are wallowing in ignorant arguments from thread to thread. You don’t know the real points-of-view of the people you criticize. You raise hypotheticals because there is no other way to devalue what “the opposition” has done.
I know that the posters who have participated in this thread are capable of better arguments. Perhaps at the moment you are blinded by your own problems with bigotry against Christians. We are just not all alike. So what?
How about a new thread on all Americans must agree before we involve ourselves in a war of aggression?
Well, I for one am going to stop criticizing atheists.
Well, unless they are Republican atheists. There are limits.
Tris
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Maybe you can alleviate my concerns just a bit, cosmodan. I assume that, over the years, you have developed a nice set of morals and ethics. If the voice you identify as “God” told you to do or say something that was contrary to the ethics/morals you already have, would you:
A. Realign those ethics/morals to be in line with God, because if he does it, it must be moral and right, or
B. Doubt that it was God in the first place?
[/QUOTE]
This seems like useless speculation to me but I’ll play along to see where you’re going.
IMHO the essence of god is truth and love. These include qualities of honesty, courage, compassion, mercy, patience, and other good stuff. It’s based on the idea that we are all connected in a very real and true way. My belief is that the voice of god would only support and nurture those qualities. If something in me says something contrary I wouldn’t take it as the voice of god.
BTW to you and **Princhister ** it’s cosmos , with that 2nd S, not cosmo.
[QUOTE=Valteron]
Last night I was watching an interview on Canadian TV with Richard Dawkins. He was interviewed alone, and made some wonderfully lucid points. I have decided to get a copy of “The God Delusion”.
But what interested me was that the Dawkins interview (30 minutes) was followed by a panel of theists (also 30 minutes) dumping on Dawkins. I guess this is supposedly what the media calls faireness and balance. Although I would like to see what they would say if an atheist group asked for a rebuttal period after the “seremonette” on a TV station. Or even just asked if their group could have some “sermonette” time along with the Priests, Rabbis, Ministers and Imams who get to appear on a rotational basis.
But I digress. The point is that the theists all took turns dumping on atheism. At the host’s invitation, I, like many others watching the program, emailed a question. Unfortunately, it never got on the program.
So maybe I can ask it here, and see what the dopers have to say. Here it is:
"I note that you have a Muslim, a Catholic and a Protestant on our panel. I would like each of them to answer the following questions in one word: yes or no.
"Do you believe Jesus Christ was the only-begotten Son of God?
"Do you believe Mohammed was the final prophet of God, and that the Koran is God’s revelation?
"Do you believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth and infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.
“And finally, since you three “experts on God” obviously cannot agree on some pretty basic facts about your deity, how do you expect an atheist like me to be converted to believing in his existence?”
[/QUOTE]
I am late arriving, and I won’t bother to read the entire thread…
I will just say that you give a lot of ink/pixels/thought/energy to this whole spiritual issue.
You are no atheist.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
This seems like useless speculation to me but I’ll play along to see where you’re going.
IMHO the essence of god is truth and love. These include qualities of honesty, courage, compassion, mercy, patience, and other good stuff. It’s based on the idea that we are all connected in a very real and true way. My belief is that the voice of god would only support and nurture those qualities. If something in me says something contrary I wouldn’t take it as the voice of god.
BTW to you and **Princhister ** it’s cosmos , with that 2nd S, not cosmo.
[/QUOTE]
I apologize for getting your name wrong, I was rushing out the door at the time.
Where I was getting with the question I asked was this-Some people who are delusional(and I am not calling you delusional, btw) hear voices that tell them to do things that they would not normally do, which they proceed to do on the basis that the voice is that of a superior entity who “knows better.” You, on the other hand, expect your God to have the same morals and ethics that you do.
Now, I have no way of telling whether what you feel comes from you or from some supernatural entity, but it reassures me somewhat that you would not dismiss out of hand what has taken you a lifetime to establish on the say so of this entity.