Did you mean this to be an insult?
I took it as just an observation…in a theory sort a way
Was it an observation that Valteron personally may not be an atheist because he devotes time and energy to thinking and discussing atheism, or was it a general remark?
It seems to imply that an atheist is someone that doesn’t put a lot of thought into that decision.
Well, actually, they didn’t “get together”; the producer of the TV program brought them all in specifically to respond to the atheist. At least that’s my impression; none of us except the OP actually saw the program.
But why is this relevant? No one has been suggesting that the three are, or claim to be, really the same. No one’s been denying that there are significant differences between them.
And in my understanding, you’re wrong about both of these things. They have a lot more in common than use of the word “God” (especially the Catholic and the Protestant); and they don’t have any particular need to “temporarily band together against the current common enemy.”
And the things they have in common are?
I was paraphrasing your argument. I’m sorry if you feel I didn’t get it exactly right, but let me explain why I used “100%”.
Let’s suppose that somehow through a…ahem, miraculous turn of events, all the leaders of all the religions in the entire world got together and decided to work out the kinks in this whole theism thing, similar to how all those astronomers got together a few months ago to decide on the definition of a planet. Now, let’s say that they all agreed on everything except when to celebrate the Sabbath. Some of them want to celebrate it on Sunday and some want to celebrate it from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Other than that, they are in perfect agreement. That doesn’t matter, right? It’s trivial, right?
I suspect that some people like you, Czarcasm, and Der Trihs would browbeat that relatively minute detail into the ground so hard you’d hit the Earth’s mantle. “How can you possibly expect to convert me to your religion? You people can’t even decide when you’re supposed to celebrate your Sabbath!” Never mind that nobody was trying to convert you in the first place. Anything less than full, complete, 100% agreement between every single theist on the planet would not be enough for you.
While you’re here, would you mind answering tomndebb’s questions? You know, which show this was, when it aired, what channel it was on, and who the sponsors were. Unless, of course, you’d like to keep it vague and continue to undermime your credibility.
Well, as far as the Protestant and the Catholic are concerned, one oversimplified answer might be “everything, except those issues that caused the Protestants to break off from the Catholic Church at the time of the Protestant Reformation.”
Or, I could point to the Nicene Creed as a statement of faith affirmed by both Catholics and Protestants. (Unless you want to claim that they mean different things by every word in it.)
When you bring the Muslim in, there is certainly less in common, and I feel less qualified to say what they do have in common due to my relative ignorance of Islam. But I think Muslims would assent to the first part:
“We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.”
(though they might not use the word “Father” and in any case would not mean that word in the sense that Christians do).
No, that’s NOT what I said. I said that they agree when it comes to theism – in other words, that there is a God. I did not claim that they all legitimately worship the same God.
And if I had made that claim, your challenge would have merit. Since I said no such thing though, I hope that you will retract yoru challenge.
I repeat: What I said is that they all agree when it comes to theism. Theism is merely the belief that there is a God. It does not, in and of itself, necessitate worshipping that God, much less dictate a manner in which this deity should be worshipped.
I think that Revenant Threshold’s comments are worth repeating:
“I agree that they do not all worship God; I think either JThunder’s wrong on that or he just put it badly. But he is right in that they are all in agreement in terms of basic theism; to be a theist, all you need to do is believe that one god exists. That god doesn’t have to be the same one as anyone else. A Christian, Muslim, Jew, are all theists in that they all agree in a single god. That’s the “basic” they all agree on, and it’s the only one required for theism.”
BTW, RT, I appreciate your defense of my comment. I hope you understand, however, that I did not “put it badly”, since I did not specifically claim that all of these clergymen do indeed worship God in a legitimate manner.
Lord Ashtar, I keep hearing over and over again that the only differences between the major religions are “minute”, and that we atheists want all of these “minute” differences worked out before we could possibly consider your religion. You know that this is not true. Until you can point out the major points these religions have in common(how many times do I have to ask this before someone gives a straightforward answer?), We have to assume that this isn’t a case of, say, 20 different recipes for chicken soup sharing the same basic qualities, but having slightly different ingredients, but more of a case of 20 different recipes for twenty totally different foods, with the only thing in common is that they are all edible.
I think we may be at cross-purposes. I think it would be perfectly legitimate to say a follower of an Abrahamic religion believe in a god. I don’t think it would be right to say they all believe in “God”, the name usually used to indicate the Christian god specifically. My point was that (as Czarcasm says) that they do not all worship the same god, but that while that makes them disagree in religious terms they do not disagree on the basic tenet of theism that a sole god exists, even though that god is not the same. If that makes sense. I’m afraid i’m not entirely sure of your point, so you may have to dumb it down for me a bit so I can get what you mean. Apologies for misrepresting your argument, though.
It was a hypothetical situation meant to illustrate that even if all of us theists worked out everything but one thing, whatever that one thing is, you (general “you”) would leap on it. You’ve already made up your mind, which is why trying to convert you would be pointless. That’s why I’m not trying to convert you.
I don’t think I’ve made the argument that we do all think alike. My Wiccan girlfriend and I have some interesting discussions about the nature of God, but we both still believe there is one. I have a coworker who is Hindu. What we disagree about could probably fill a dozen and a half books, but we both still believe in a higher power.
So is believing in a higher power of some kind what we all have in common? That’s close enough for me, but I’ll let some of the other theists in this thread comment as to whether or not they feel that’s an apt description.
I take it being edible isn’t enough of a commonality for you?
Possible ? Sure ? Common ? Hardly. Atheists are America’s least trusted group. I’ve spent my entire life listening to people talk about how anything is better than atheism, how it’s better to kill for Kali than to be an atheist, how they would prefer that their children die than become an atheist.
:dubious: Do you really want a list of all the bad and stupid things the opposition, religious believers in this case, have done ? Religious people have done plenty of things that devalue their beliefs. As far as I’m concerned the burden of proof is on the religious to prove that they are not a plague upon the land.
Actually, I agree fully with what you said. You summarized things very nicely.
Remember, I said that Jews, Christians and Muslims are all theists. Czarcasm took liberties with this remark though, accusing me of saying that they all worshipped the same God. In reality, I made no such remark.
I stand by my claim that I did not “put it badly.” That’s because I did not utter the claim that Czarcasm was attributing to me.
I was talking about theism alone, not worship. One could argue about whether Jews, Christians and Muslims do indeed worship the same deity, but that’s all beside the point. It’s irrelevant to the question of whether they are theists or not.
Who made such a claim? Nobody in this thread, as far as I can tell.
Apologies again, then. I think I was just thrown by your use of the term “God” and failed to read your point properly.
Not if the next sentence is, “Vegetarians and carnivores basically eat the same kinds of food, except for some slight differences in ingredients.”
No…not your entire life. In case you haven’t noticed, you are not attacked for being an atheist in these posts.
But your rapid fire attacks continue. Why is that?
Why would you think I would need it? When have I ever denied the bad and stupid things that have been done in the name of religion? Haven’t you heard my own frustration with those who would deny gays full rights or deny a woman the right to make decisions regarding her own body? Can you imagine how I feel about the men who still seek to deny women full roles in church leadership? I could also make a very long list.
I could make a long list about the bad and stupid things I’ve done in my life too. If you see me post something which you think is wrong or stupid, please address that and tell me why its wrong or stupid. But there is no need to address something that I have not claimed.
Try to think of me as an individual named Zoe who happens to be a Christian. Each Christian is and individual and deserves to be judged by you on an individual basis.
I am NOT a Christian who pushes for prayer in schools, Creation Science in schools, the Ten Commandments on Courthouse steps, keeping Terry Schiavo alive, banning federally supported stem cell research, In God We Trust on money, and required reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance.
I do believe in service to others less fortunate than ourselves. I think that is one of the two most important things I learned from the New Testament.
Sorry. I didn’t mean to make this a sermon. I just felt like you really didn’t know me as an individual human being.
So the only supportable religion is a vague theism which gives no life direction and precious little description of the god believed in? Works for me. If all religions truly believed in only this, the world would be a far better place.
If you think our world is like this, please let me know what you are smoking. There are times when I would like some.
Well, fundamentalists don’t care much about being pc, do they? In any case, there is a difference between a religion being non-judgmental and it agreeing in the truth of the tenets of other religion. I grew up believing neither I nor God should care what you goyim believed, so long as you left us alone. That didn’t mean you were right. The concept that believing in the wrong god can get you in trouble is a rather recent invention. Quite effective for marketing, but evil.