Let us talk about demons and Hell

Great Debates
1

Inspired by this thread by the inimitable Inigo Montoya:
You see, this world is Hell. You know the place of eternal fires and torment that pious clerics keep threatening sinners to? This is it. We are all being punished for whatever made us worthy of punishment. Was it rejection of God? was it being a sinful person? Was it not acknowledging the right Person (God, Savior, Incarnation, Imam, Socialist Leader of the Peoples)? We don’t know, and it doesn’t matter: all we know is that we’re stuck in Hell.

The “God” we so earnestly hope for is none other than the Master of Hell, Satan. Cast here, the real God - up in Heaven, so far away from - has no interest in us. And why should He? He cast us here to suffer, after all. God ignores us. Satan rejoices in our suffering and torments (causing a disaster now and then for His amusement - although He doesn’t have to do much since we humans do a wonderful job tormenting each other as it is).

What, then, are demons? Well, we all are. We are the denizens of Hell, the subjects of Satan, the inhabitants of the Abyss, the tormented and afflicted suffering souls cast from the presence, attention, and mercy of God. Okay, okay: so this is “demon” in a less-than-literal sense.

What are real demons? Real demons are supernatural beings whose sole purpose is to cause more suffering and torment for and amongst humans. They take the guise of humans, seemingly supernatural “leaders,” etc. They act with impunity, then disappear (to our view) once their work is done. Real demons are really fallen angels, those angels who rebelled with Satan against God in Heaven. God cast Satan and His angels to Hell: we call these fallen angels “demons” to differentiate them from the heavenly angels with God. Like angels, demons are imperishable, immortal, and in general incorporeal.

We humans are half angels and half demons. But in Hell, guess which aspect of ourselves comes to the fore? You guessed it: our demonic nature!

This is true enlightenment, to know we’re stuck in Hell, that we’re surrounded by demons, and that there’s no way out except for death - although what lies beyond that we cannot know, maybe more suffering? maybe we come back?

Um, that’s all I can think of right now. If something comes back to mind, I’ll update.

But how do you see things as possibly being with regard to demons and Hell?

WRS - I don’t necessarily believe the above.

2

I don’t regard either as possibly being at all.

3

Sounds like Catholicism, Buddhism and Nihilism got drunk and trashed the place.

4

As we say in the Church of the SubGenius, the difference between Hell and Heaven is which end of the pitchfork you’re on! :wink:

5

A neat idea, but there’s far too many things to make us happy for this to be hell… my dvd collection for example.

Art

6

As you all know, it has been argued that in order to experience happiness, one must experience sorrow.

In that case, the only difference between heaven and hell could be the proportions of happiness vs sorrow. What percentage of the time are you enjoying yourself? 50+% = heaven and 50-% = hell.

7

If Hell contains such incredible natural beauty, and its demons can bring me such laughter and friendship, Satan can be my God any time.

8

The way I see it is; If A God created Satan and didn’t destroy Him,then he must want him to exist.if God is all knowing, then He knew Satan would rebel, and turn God’s creatures to do evil ,and separate some from him. Some say that God lets him do evil and temp man so he would sin, so man has the choice of doing good or evil. A small child once asked me why Satan was smarter than God, he said,“Satan makes evil look good so people will sin and go to hell, Why doesn’t God make good look good, so people would want to do good rather than evil”?

I just told him that Satan is a symbol of evil, people believed that every thing has an opposit and so since God is all good then they believe Satan is evil.

Monavis

9

See, this is what happens when you forget to call Nietzche to come with and be the designated driver. My favorite anchor quote of his: “A casual stroll through a mental asylum shows that faith proves nothing.”

Another philosopher speaks to the OP quite beautifully, maybe someone who’s actually educated can remind me who it is. But on the topics of Demons/Angels he opines: At some point, all of us must transition from this world into the next. Naturally, while we’re here we become attached to this world–the beauty, the friends, the familiarity… To assist us in the transition there are spirits that help us shed these attatchments. If we resist them, then their labors upon us are painful and we perceive them as demons. But if we are at peace, and have lived a reasonably good life and are ready for the transition, then the demons are perceived as angels guiding us to the next world.

I don’t think we have as much control over our personal circumstances as we might like to believe–otherwise concepts like luck, fate or gods wouldn’t be universal, but we DO have a measure of control over how we perceive those circumstances. The last 3 months have been quite possibly the worst I’ve ever lived through (complete psychological meltdown, recognition of being the owner of a shattered mind, troubles with matrimonial insurgents), but ultimately I made some choices about how to handle those events that offer me a better February than I would have had otherwise. In fact, I have a sense of hope and an appreciation for what I now have that has eluded me for many years. Up close, yeah, I was in the foulest pit of hell. But if one can endure the torments of one’s own personal band of Cenobytes, then one can enjoy the highest freshness of ecstacy…or something.

If you look at it THAT way, then God did indeed make Satan, firm in the knowledge that this spirit’s sole drive would be to effect change, challenge our individual biases and force us humans to doubt our senses and feelings. Satan is an educational tool of God just as Michael, Gabriel and Raphael are. To ask for bliss without also asking for agony is like asking for money without working, to ask for enlightenment without study, to ask for love without risk. The gifts are empty without knowledge of their absence.

10

The only surprising part in ** WeRSauron ** post is the idea that we’ve already been judged and sentenced to this earthly hell by god.
The rest (the world is the realm of the devil and God doesn’t take any part in it) has been the basis of a number of heresies.

11

That’s always seemed silly to me. If you’ve got everything you could possibly need for physical and mental comfort what difference would it make if you didn’t know it?

12

Didn’t the reign of satan come to an end with Christ’s rejection of temptation? Satan takes Jesus to a mountaintop, and offers jesus all the glories of the world, if he (Jesus) will fall down and worship him. Jesus refuses, and satan’s powe is finished!

13

newcomb being mentions his/her DVD collection. Excellent point, and one which illustrates the OP. This world is so horrid that we must withdraw to blatant illusions - songs, movies, entertainment - to distract us from this world, Hell.

SentientMeat mentions beauty and things that make one laugh. Excellent point, and one which illustrates the OP: Hell is so structured that we fall in love with it, forming deep, lasting, irresistable desires with it. This causes us to be constantly focused towards these elements of existence, which in turn stab us in the back. Nature, so beautiful and awe-inspiring, can rise up (sometimes literally) against us, causing much devastation and destruction. The people who make us laugh - they don’t always make us laugh. They also cause us suffering. They also obscure our view of reality: they make us see the good, amplifying it, and so we loose the view of the all-pervasive evil and suffering that abounds throughout our world.

ralph124c mentions the end of Satan’s reign with Jesus’ rejection of Him. Well, I am sure such a theological argument may be made, but from the perspective of the Gospels the Kingdom of Heaven has not come fully yet: it will be fully established and present after the Parousia. Until then, this world is a battle between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Hell. The flaw, regarding the OP, with this view is that there is no Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. It’s simply another illusion used to lull us to false hope, to keep us asleep, unaware of the truth of our existence.

Religions came into being partly because of human need thereof and partly by illusions and trickery by Satan. Satan permits religions to exist so as to keep us misguided, to increase our delusions and suffering. Religions are useless. Even if we were to bow down and worship Satan Himself, it would make no difference. What would a handful of suffering beings matter to the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-ruling Lord of Hell? Why would He stoop down to ease our hurts, when it is our hurts that amuse Him most?

WRS

14

WRS, I think you would have made a good Gnostic.

15

Thank you, FriendRob. But I must disagree. The Gnostics believed in a way out. According to the OP, there is no way out. God has abandoned us. We are stuck here.

The Gnostics believed the material world was created by the Demiurge, the Devil. But according to the OP’s philosophy, this world was created by God specifically for our torment and suffering. God created this material world, God created our spirits, and He damned both to Hell, literally.

I was thinking that the OP sounded almost Buddhist. The world is full of suffering. Suffering comes, partly from desire. So, Buddhism says, get rid of desire, and one will be free. The Eightfold Noble Path permits ones to get rid of desire. But what good does any good do? If someone else is a recipient of good, they feel good, becoming more attached to this world, which will only bring them more suffering. Sure, there are people who do good, but does it matter that their isolated episodes of good swim amongst the putrid ocean of that person’s evil? Does one good deed redeem him/her? And since we’re all trapped, and God has abandoned us, what good will goodness do for us here or elsewhere?

WRS

16

But what would be the point of realizing such a depressing truth, exactly?

Man cannot live without hope, even if said hope eventually turns out to be blatantly false.

I’d rather live as if I’m in Heaven, or at least on my way there.

17

WRS,

Where did you come up with this malarchy? Is this a setting for a book you are about to write? Seems totally fictional, though I’m sorry to say not really all that original. It seems to me a surface explanation coming from the viewpoint of someone that has never been privy to the experiences of faith or knowledge in Christ or the true Biblical accounts. It seems to be based more on hearsay, or observations based on second hand eyewitness accounts. In other words, just plain guesses.

If you are going to go on and discuss demons from the Biblical point of view, you should do so accurately.
-The Fact is, Satan isn’t the master of hell. He is the first prisoner.
-God didn’t cast us here. He gave us this Earth. Christ will eventually reign on Earth.
-God doesn’t ignore us. He loves us. There is PLENTY of evidence to support this.
-We were never angels, so we cannot be demons.
-We do NOT NOT NOT have an inherent demonic nature. Our inherent nature is GOODNESS! If it were not, then the goals of all of the world’s societies since the beginnning of hitory would have been murder, vengeance, theft, adultery, backbiting, slander, etc. rather than charity, kindheartedness, affection, tolerance, and love.
-If we were really in hell, there would be no “beyond”. We would endure here forever. There would be no death, only suffering. Guess what. There is death. So there must be an end and/or a beyond. Hell is ETERNAL torment.

Demons are angelic soldiers who abandoned God and joined Lucifer’s army. They will join Satan in the final battle against Christ and lose.

How is this enlightening? What freedom does this belief give you? To be evil? To justify committing suicide? I see no enlightenment in the account you gave, only death and further suffering. We have hope at least. That should be proof enough that this is not hell. If (not “when” I pray) you ever get to hell, you will KNOW that you are there forever.

Please God, forgive WeRSauron for calling you Satan. He is only trying to come to terms to understand you from the perspective that he has been allowed to have. Please show him Your grace and reveal the truth. Reveal the truth to all who read this in fact.

If you want to know the truth, it’s easy. Read the Bible:
http://www.biblegateway.com
or if you prefer:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

If you choose the skeptics bible, then read the comments skeptically. Some of them really are plain stupid.

18

And I’m sorry if the prayer in my last post seemed presumptuous and sanctimonious. I didn’t include it to cast judgement on anyone. I didn’t include it to make me appear self-righteous or to reinforce a thought you might feel that I think that anyone here is damned. I wrote it just in case God was too busy to hear me and maybe he would read it since I know he reads this message board. I hope and pray that no one was offended by it. I only meant well by it.

19

But you speak only from a Christian’s viewpoint. How would your philodophy fit with some of the other religions of the world, e.g Hinduism?

20

Err, aren’t demons, satan, hell, God, and angels mostly specific to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam? I didn’t know that Hinduism had angels or Satan. And I seriously doubt that any Hinduism faith could be stretched so far to remotely resemble the OP.

Face it, the closest religion to the OP is Christianity.