I’m at work, standing in a public parking lot waiting for a company official to give me a ride after doing some work in the field. I’m wearing a bright green vest with reflective stripes and company logos clearly visible, a radio pac set like police use, protective eye wear, and a lantern since it was dusk.
A random guy walks up to me with a 2 by 4 in his hands and asks me what I’m doing. I don’t answer him, and I’m seriously thinking about taking defensive action. Just then my ride shows up.
My question, and I’m not sure there is a factual answer but I’ll post it here anyway, is would I have been justified using lethal force here.
If not why? Would I have to wait for him to actually swing first, possibly killing me?
I’m a 43 year old black man, he was about the same age but white.
You imply that you were threatened. How close was he to you? Was it an 8’ 2x4 or a shorter piece convenient to hit you with? Why didn’t you answer him? Was there something threatening about the way he asked you what you were doing?
I’m sure you realize you can’t just kill people because they are carrying a board and they could potentially use that as a weapon to kill you.
I was walking around a parking lot with a 2x4 in my hand last weekend. I had just taken our pontoon boat out of the water and the 2x4 was used to block the trailer tire.
I think you have to wait until he verbally threatens you and/or is within swing range of the board or he is charging you. It also seems to depend heavily on whether you are actually a sworn police officer or not. Frankly, you’re going to face a court trial for murder if it isn’t cut and dried in your favor. You better have witnesses and visible injuries if you don’t want to be forced to plead to manslaughter, unless you are a cop. Also, being black is not in your favor in the courts either.
No matter what the technical rights are, you better get out your phone and you should retreat, even if you have a gun, if you don’t want to face prison. If you aren’t a cop, your right to stand your ground/self defense isn’t the same right a cop has. The actual written law may not read that way, but that’s what it means in practice.
Like I said, he came right up to me, well within striking distance, and the board was shorter, perfect for swinging.
TriPolar, here’s the thing. Why should I have to answer him. He was not police and had no authority over me, and as I said it was clearly visible that I was on the job.
Why are you listing the skin colors of the people involved? What difference does it make to the decision to use lethal force?
This whole thread feels like a gotcha thread where you are going to eventually supply the real information that makes the this rather silly question make at least some sense.
but to answer the question you put forth. No, someone walking up to you and asking a simple question while caring a 2X4 doesn’t give you the right to use lethal force.
But there were no overt threatening actions or statements. I don’t see any way that a physical or violent response is legally justified, let alone a lethal response.
There’s nothing wrong with asking someone what they are doing. You said it was a public parking lot so it’s perfectly reasonable for him to ask. Did you feel threatened? If so why? If it’s not clear even in a stand your ground state you can’t just err on the side of a caution and start killing people.
How was he holding the board? One hand, two? Up in the air like a batter getting ready to swing? How did he sound? Angry? Was he shouting? Did he use profanity?
Assuming you felt threatened did it have anything to do with his skin color being different from yours?
Because our constitutional “rights” only mean anything if a court of law - an institution that shows clear and overwhelming statistical bias against black people, and in favor of police officers - decides to honor that “right”. It absolutely does matter in the real world.
Split, you might be able to justify drawing on him but you can’t justify firing unless he (1) says he’s gonna attack (2) makes a definite move like he’s about to hit you (3) gets the first blow in. And if you aren’t a cop, you should be backing away as you do not want to rely on “stand your ground” as the courts probably won’t honor it, especially as you are also black. The only way I can see you having the right to shoot is if, as you are backing away, the guy looks like he is going to swing and keeps coming at you, or says he’s gonna hit you and keeps coming. You also should draw and warn him you have a gun as well as a last resort before actually firing.
If you fire and kill the guy, under no circumstances will the cops leave you alone without having to spends tens of thousands, possibly your entire savings on a lawyer, and it will be up to prosecutors whether or not you face a fight for your very life. With the notable exception that if you catch it on video and/or the guy has a gun, then you might be able to avoid facing charges.
I do have an agenda, and I think people are kidding themselves when they say skin color doesn’t matter in these situations. The answers so far confirm what I was thinking.
I was clearly being threatened, and was about to defend myself.
He was holding it like you might hold a bat, one handed with it resting on his chest. Easily brought to bear.
His skin color only mattered to me in that I knew it was an insular racist white neighborhood that doesn’t take kindly to seeing black people in the area.
I’m a 57 year old white guy. In your shoes I’d have probably been pretty nervous. If you’re ever around western PA I’ll buy you a beer. All lives matter, and all people can be good.
That’s even worse for ya if you killed the guy. All the prosecutors have to do is ask around, and they might find a racist “witness” who will claim you were the one holding the 2x4, you just pulled out your weapon and started attacking unprovoked, etc etc.
Thanks for that, I thought it was totally reasonable for me to be nervous. My thing is that I may not run in these situations, nor do I think I should have to.
Luckily my ride showed up, and I did end up fleeing the scene in a way.
Maybe not, but you’re not gonna feel like a badass in prison. I’d rather be humiliated and not facing charges than under attack by people who don’t give a rats ass if you committed the crime or not, they just want to get another conviction and for you to agree to as much prison time as possible.