If you want to be respected on the streets and not treated like a rent-a-cop, you need a real badge, a real gun, a real vest, and a radio you can call for backup on. All this is achievable - police academy an average of 5 months. Plenty of cops have part time jobs as police and work security the rest of the time.
Carrying a 2x4 is not a threat. Walking up to someone is not a threat. Asking someone what they’re doing is not a threat. Being white (or any other color) in public is not a threat. In short, unless there’s something you’re not telling us (and why wouldn’t you?), there was no threat at all here. You said you felt nervous? OK, you have a right to feel nervous whenever you want. That right translates into, for instance, a right to tell the guy “Back off”, or to move away from him. It does not translate into a right to murder a guy who’s not threatening anyone in any way.
With what you have described you may have felt threatened and it may have been a dangerous situation. But if you just attack because you do not like the looks of the guy facing you are going to need a lawyer in a major way. And from the description of events that you have given if you had hurt the guy you are going to get convicted.
Just because you do not like the looks of someone you can not attack them. I hope that never changes.
No, in general you’re not allowed to shoot people for carrying construction material and making light conversation. There has to be some kind of actual threat to justify using force, and you haven’t described a threat, much less a threat big enough to warrant deadly force. Also, in most states if you’re not in your home, you have to retreat if possible before using deadly force.
Unless you’re a cop. Then you just have to make sure to say the right things “he was coming right for me! He was gripping the 2x4 like he was preparing to swing! He was disrespectful and confrontational. I heard him mutter under his breath he was gonna kill a cop today. I drew my gun and told him to get on the ground and he didn’t comply within 2 seconds!”
And stick to your story and hope that any video records of the event are not crystal clear HD and don’t cover the whole thing. Do all that and you’ll probably keep your job. Worst case, you get fired but you’ll win in court and you can go work for another department.
I have nothing to do with law enforcement or security, and wasn’t pretending to be. Like I said, my company name and logo was clearly visible on my federally mandated reflective vest.
My companies property was visible right behind the parking lot, I just had to be in a different spot and it would have taken to long to walk there, so one of the company supervisors offered to give me a ride.
I did not have a firearm.
See, I was thinking that since the guy was holding a weapon it may change things, it was more than just his looks. But I can see by the answers that I’d have to wait for the guy to brain me first, and then respond. Assuming I’m not dead of course.
I’ll never understand this.
Here’s the way it would play out - you would have to convince a jury that you were threatened and feared for your life and lethal force was justified.
Being threatened isn’t the same as feeling threatened. You were probably perfectly justified in feeling threatened, but you weren’t actually threatened in a way that would justify lethal force.
Everything happens in the heat of the moment, but everything gets judged by people who weren’t there and aren’t feeling what you felt. If you can convince 12 people you were justified, then you’re good. If not, you’re sunk.
Should you have to deal with this stuff? No. But life’s not fair and sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor.
Also, a professional liar hired by the state will do his best to manipulate the system so you go to prison. He has the ability to do things like “ask” cellmates of yours (after he sent you to jail with a stroke of a pen unless you can pay bail) if you confessed to the crime, and give them a lower sentence if they testify against you. He can put you in lineups and make sure the witness knows to point their finger at you. He can pay other professional liars called “expert witnesses” with no credible qualifications to say you must have committed a crime, even if the fire or other event was an accident.
He only has to convince 12 idiots to go with their gut and vote guilty. Also, in racially divided areas, he may be able to pull the jury pool from the racist white people side of town.
Your only chance to survive means you have to hire as good or better a professional liar. You have to pay your own detectives and investigators because the cops won’t investigate witnesses who might be in your favor. You have to pay to even be released from jail so you don’t get held there for 6 months or more awaiting trial.
And if you win, you don’t get any of your money back. You don’t get an apology or any compensation whatsoever. And you will have a criminal record stating you were arrested for murder, which employers can use to deny your future employment, even though you were not found guilty.
Common courtesy says to at least respond to him. It’s not an unreasonable questio, and one should at least try to *act *civilized.
Thanks, and like you said I was thinking more about a heat of the moment thing. Again, I did not have a firearm so I wasn’t talking about shooting him walking up to me. I was thinking about hitting him.
These kinds of altercations have the potential to be lethal, so I was trying to see if I did that and he died would I have been justified.
I’ve been approached “menacingly” by another white guy. When he said whatever it was that he said, I stared and asked, “what the fuck business is it of yours” or words to that effect. He backed down.
In your case I’d have kept an eye on his 2x4. Mentally tell yourself that you’ll take it from him and shove it up his ass if push comes to shove. Thinking that way shows on your face.
Better yet, I’d have seen him long before he approached and I’d be giving a stare as he approached. Situational awareness is your friend.
The one time I visited NYC, I was in Central Park and I was approached by a guy (race forgotten) who asked if I was looking for something. He was selling drugs! I like drugs, but was intentionally empty pocketed, so I just thanked him for asking and laughed at how cool it was to be offered drugs in Central Park. He probably thought I was a nut.
Can you afford a high end lawyer and to lose income from jail time? Do you own your own business so you won’t need to pass a background check? If the answer’s no to either question, then no, you wouldn’t be justified.
See, I think common courtesy kind of went out the window when he came up to me with a 2 by 4. Again, I wasn’t just some random person out there. I was wearing identifying clothing and protective eyewear.
Why do I owe him any courtesy for approaching me in that manner?
Even if the guy was intending the 2x4 for use as a weapon, which I’ll agree is likely (not certain), you don’t get to harm someone who hasn’t made any move to attack you. He could have been carrying that 2x4 because he was bringing it somewhere and just happened to see you. He could have been concerned for his own safety and had it as a way of protecting himself should the need arise. If you had harmed him, you would be charged, and if I were on the jury I would vote to convict you, assuming you’re not leaving out any important details.
Why wouldn’t you answer the guy? He may have had good reasons for wanting to know (or maybe he was just a racist asshole, but you don’t know). If you’re truly wanting to protect yourself, the best way is to de-escalate the situation. Tell him “I work for X company and I’m with a crew working on the XYZ over there.” If you just stand there and don’t answer, you’re escalating things. Why did you not want to de-escalate?
I was watching him, and I was thinking of saying that. My job brings me into some rough neighborhoods, I’ve had things similar to what happened to me occur in black neighborhoods too
Someone making ordinary conversation while holding a 2x4 is not a credible threat. If he was gesturing with the 2x4 or saying something threatening, then you probably have a threat, you don’t have to wait for him to hit you. With rare exceptions, you also have a duty to retreat, so you would have to try to get away before you’re allowed to off the guy too. Incidentally, the duty to retreat works in your favor here - if you say that you don’t want to talk, back away from him, and ask him to stay back from you, then his continuing to approach you becomes a much more credible threat.
You seriously don’t understand why society has a problem with killing a guy because he asked you a normal question?
Why do you think hitting him when he has made no effort or threat to strike him is justified?
(Damn it, you must made me break my no-rhetorical-questions rule.)
Common courtesy is as much about avoiding unnecessary conflict as it is something one person owes another. A mature adult should try to avoid violence as much as possible.
And, really, hitting the guy merely because you felt threatened by his stick would have been stupid, on account of him having a two-by-four (giving him greater reach as well as more mass to hit with) than you. Even if he HAD made a threat, the better tactical course would have been to yell for help, withdraw if possible, and if retreat is not possible, do your best to dodge his blows until you can gain an advantage by him being off-balance from a swing or whateer.
Let’s put it this way: if it was legal for you to kill him, before he hit you, just because he was standing there making you nervous, then why wouldn’t it be legal for him to kill you, when you’re standing there making him nervous?