Your nervousness is understandable, but using lethal force based on assumptions isn’t. If you had simply taken a couple of steps away you could see what his reaction would be. Based on your description the guy sounds like an asshole but I’m guessing you’re smart enough to make sure you’re in your rights before you start swinging. I think you’re more bothered by the fact that you have to deal with this situation than the perceived threat itself. If you don’t have a cell phone with a camera you should get one, that should be your first weapon if you’re not being clearly threatened or attacked.
Did you notify your company about this incident? Just curious about how they would react.
Only thing is he approached me, so he couldn’t have been that nervous. He came out of one of the houses across from the parking lot.
So the real question would be why didn’t he call the police from the safety of his house if he was that nervous? Now if the cops had of asked me what I was doing, I would have answered them.
[QUOTE=TriPolar;18815494
Did you notify your company about this incident? Just curious about how they would react.[/QUOTE]
My supervisor saw him walk away from me when he pulled up, and saw the 2 by 4. I think they are going to make it a no go zone without police escort, like we have in some other bad neighborhoods already.
What State you are in actually matters for this, most States you have a “duty to retreat” when you’re not in your home, prior to being justified in using lethal force. You would have failed to satisfy said duty when you attacked him after he walked up to you and asked you the question but failed to first try walking away.
Even in Stand Your Ground States, you still have a requirement to convince either a judge or jury that you had a “reasonable fear for your life”, and to be frank, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter it’s my belief that most judges and most jurors would not feel you had a reasonable fear for your life. It doesn’t mean you didn’t feel threatened or didn’t feel afraid, but that fear wasn’t reasonable.
You’re not required to let someone hit you in the head with a 2x4, but you aren’t allowed to kill people for walking around with a 2x4 either, and that’s essentially the logic you’re putting forward here. In self defense situational awareness is incredibly important. If you are working in a bad neighborhood you should be scanning around at all times looking for people approaching you. When you got a bad vibe you should’ve backed away from this guy, if he deliberately follows you then your suspicions that he’s intending to do you harm are likely to be correct at that point.
Carrying a board in your presence is not a threat. Carrying a firearm in your presence is not a threat. A vocal threat (like, “I’m gonna kill you!”) is a threat, so long as you believe they have the means to immediately back it up. Pointing a deadly weapon at you is a threat. Holding the 2x4 like a baseball bat may be considered a threat, but not a deadly threat, and in public you have a duty to retreat when threatened with violence unless it would endanger your life to do so.
It’s pretty clear cut. This situation, as you’ve described it, would not have justified using lethal force. Pointing a weapon at you is a threat. Asking you “whats up” while carrying a hunk of wood is not a legitimate threat, even if the guy was an asshole and trying to scare you on purpose.
I have to admit I have a problem with this; a bigger problem than I have with a white guy asking a black guy dressed in work gear in a parking lot what he was doing. What is wrong with extending courtesy to everyone? Why do you feel a need to owe someone courtesy before you can extend it? I have found out, over the years, that people really do treat you in response to how you treat them. No, you don’t “HAVE TO” treat others in a courteous manner, but, in general, things will go better if you do. It’s not a question of whether or not they deserve it, but one of what harm does it do to give it?
If it had been a black guy walking by asking what you were doing, would have told him you were working for the company whose logo you were wearing, waiting for a buddy to pick you up? Why didn’t you just say that to this guy? As for carrying a 2x4, they are commonly used for many things and are rarely used as lethal weapons. After answering his question, you could have then asked him why he was carrying a 2x4. That’s how communication works.
No, you would not be justified. Until the person takes a swing at you all you can do is increase your readiness posture. Once the person takes a swing at you, though, you would be justified, but only so far as is necessary to end the threat to your life, and if the person dies that’s really too bad.
If you cannot look at a situation and say “Officer/Judge, I had no other choice”, you cannot shoot. Lethal force is an absolute last resort, not a tool in the toolkit, not an option to prevent yourself from being injured, not something you use when you’re a little scared, it’s the end, because for one of you it will be.
You have a concealed blackjack, which is a weapon and not useful for any other purpose, and you think the guy who walked up to you carrying a piece of lumber is the problem to the point where maybe you get to kill him because he talked to you? Do us all a favour and never purchase a firearm.
This guy wasn’t just walking by with a piece of lumber for his home workshop the way you and others are making it out to be.
I have had the same type of thing happen to me working in black neighborhoods, and responded basically the same way, but I also knew the cops were nearby.
Well then perhaps you should try making it out how it was, because you really haven’t done that yet.
It is possible for the situation you describe to be menacing with additional unstated facts (many of which would be nebulous and hard to describe), but the story that you actually put into words contains no threat. Seriously, go back and try to read your OP from the point of view of someone who wasn’t there: you’re standing in a parking lot in work clothes, a stranger comes up to you holding a piece of lumber and asks what you’re doing, and your reaction is to (A) say nothing, and (B) contemplate hurting or killing him. Frankly, that sounds like a crazy person. The detail that he came out of a house is relevant and a step in the right direction (not that it really proves anything by itself), but it took you until post #43 to offer it. What about the situation actually made you feel threatened?
Also, you may as well let us know what this agenda you mention is, if that’s what the thread is about.
I will give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he could tell by the stranger’s tone, demeanor, and body language–in addition to the literal words that came from his mouth–that he was approached in a hostile and intentionally intimidating manner. “What are you doing here?” doesn’t strike me as a casual, non-threatening question given the circumstances described. What is unreasonable is expecting a calm, respectful response to that question from someone who is alone, just minding their business as they stand waiting in an area they are full entitled to stand in.
That said, there are more options that were available to the OP than fighting or fleeing. The OP may have a good reason to suspect the guy had ill-intentions towards him, but he didn’t know the extent of these ill-intentions.
Let’s assume the OP’s ride didn’t show up when it did. So the guy is walking over and is demanding to know what he was doing there. At this point, maybe stepping back a few feet to increase distance between you and him would make sense. Not only does this gesture show you’re not there for a fight, but it allows you really to assess his intentions. An aggressive person will keep moving towards you. And if he does that, then its time to speak: “Watch it, honey. Whatever you need to say, you can say it from there.”
If he keeps his distance at this point, great. If not, then cue your club coming out. Don’t raise it unless his is raised, but be ready to connect.
Of course, if a fight occurs and he loses, it will come down to his word against yours. And chances are high a jury won’t be on your side. But regardless, if I thought this is how the whole thing went down, I wouldn’t fault you for killing him.
Because sometimes extending courtesy to jerks prevents them from experiencing the unpleasant consequences of their rude behavior. So not only do they keep doing it, but they feel entitled to do it.
“What are you doing here?” is begging for a smart ass response. It’s not a good faith question; it’s a rude and intrusive one. Indulging this type of interrogation is akin to encouraging it.
The thing is, the guy with the 2x4 has at least as much right to carry something that can be used as an improvised weapon near the OP as the OP does to carry something designed as a weapon near the guy. Even regarding the 2x4 as a weapon, you can’t kill a guy for asking a question and being armed, but less armed than you are. In the situation described, if the OP was justified in using deadly force, the other guy would be too by the same argument if he spotted the outline of the OP’s weapon. It’s not in the interest of society to tell people that it’s OK to just kill people on the street if you don’t especially like them.
The guy could be considered to be brandishing a weapon, especially if he was close enough to strike with it. It’s not the same thing as a holstered gun or a knife in your pocket.
Either way–the way you’ve described it would create a situation in which you’d likely be convicted of a form of illegal homicide if you relied on that in court. If you have a more detailed or exculpatory version you should present it.
I wasn’t near the guy, I was standing alone in the middle of a parking lot with at most 5 cars in it. He came out of a house and walked up to me, 2 by 4 in hand. We didn’t pass each other, he approached me directly, 2 by 4 in hand. How could he have possibly of spotted a concealed blackjack from over 200 feet away? I damn sure know he could see my work vest from at least 200 feet away, that is the point of it.
This wasn’t just some guy carrying lumber for a project, casually saying “hey what’s going on?”
Any answer that claims you have to wait until he took a swing at you is incorrect. All that is required is that you perceived your life to be in danger, and the force you used was necessary to end that threat. Whether you had a duty to attempt to retreat or not varies by state.
The tricky part is that it is a matter of perception. You would inevitably be required to explain to the jury why you perceived this person to be a threat, and the jury will be asked whether a reasonable person (placed in your shoes) would believe the same.
Clearly, the farther the situation escalates the stronger your case will be. But there are a number of questions the prosecutor will ask: How big was this guy? What did he do that made you think he was hostile? What tone of voice did he use? What was his body language? Did you do anything to explain yourself or try to resolve the situation peacefully? If all he is doing is talking to you, I would expect there to be something else to the story that made you think he was about to attack and the use of lethal violence was the only way you could protect yourself.
In a perfect world, if you were in a public place where you had a right to be, you could just tell him to go fuck himself and he couldn’t do a damn thing about it. If he really doesn’t like you, he can tell you to wait while he summons a police officer, and then you can sue the shit out of him for making an unlawful detention.
In real life, it’s probably better to just answer him politely so you can both get on with your business.
“Could be considered” is a cop-out phrase, you ‘can consider’ just about anything to be just about anything. Have there been any cases where a person was holding a piece of lumber in his hands, did not gesture at someone or raise it up like a weapon, and was convicted of brandishing a weapon? The dictionary definition of brandish certainly doesn’t fit, as it requires that you “wave or flourish” the weapon - just holding it wouldn’t qualify.