A couple of things I’ll pipe in on.
2). Why must everyone hack GFIII so bad? If this movie was released on it’s own it would probably do okay, and get decent reviews (not excellent, but decent). Just because the first two movies were masterpieces it gets a bad rap.
MtM
I think if Apollonia had lived, that would have been it for Kay. I don’t think she would have been content to be a mistress.
As for Michael’s feelings about Kay, I think he loved her as much as he was capable of loving a woman. When you think about it, after coming back from Sicily, he needed to take the reins; Don Vito was aged, and ill, and had forsworn his vengeance in an effort to keep Michael safe. Now Michael has to settle the “unfinished business” left in the wake of the Sollozzo debacle. Michael is the new Don. He can’t run the family and chase a mate; and he needs a son, the sooner the better. So, he goes back to Kay and persuades her to marry him. It’s a calculated move to make himself better Don material, I’m guessing, but I imagine he also still harbored feelings for Kay. She’s expedient in a number of respects.
If you were Tom Hagen, and you resolved (or were ordered) to cut off a horse’s head and place it in someone’s bed while they were sleeping: how would you go about it?
The mind boggles. How many of Wolz’s people had to get paid off to take the night off/look the other way?
Just a guess: Somehow that girl Woltz was molesting was the key. She provided a means of entry, possibly, maybe even access to a sympathetic insider who wouldn’t mind seeing Woltz suffer for his pederasty. A key to the door and someone to look the other way, that’s all Luca et al. would need, perhaps.
I always thought that there was some insinuation that Fredo had something to do with Vito’s shooting. Therefore, Michael wasn’t so cold towards Fredo because he was incompetent or because he betrayed Michael, but because he tried to have Dad offed. That was what was so unforgiveable. And that was why Michael wouldn’t kill Fredo until after Mom died.
I haven’t seen it in a while, tho’, so I could be misremembering.
Snicks
This is right out of the novel:
Michael met Kay at college, long before he became involved in the “family business”. In fact, he was at that time determined NOT to enter the family business, and dating Kay was one way of separating himself from his home and family, the whole environment, etc.
When he found himself enmeshed in the murdur of Sollazo and Captain McClusky, he believed himself permanently cut off from his former life, and, specifically, from Kay. He couldn’t believe that she would want anything to do with him after that. Hence, he was free to marry Apolonia.
This is speculation:
Had Appolonia lived, Michael would have brought her back to the States as his wife after the execution of the “real murderer” (a patsy from the Boccicco Family) left him free to do so. When Kay inquired as to how Michael was getting along, she would presumably have found out that he was home and married, and thus gone on with her own life – and probably would have been much happier.
Appolonia would probably have been a wife in the mold of Mama Corleone, more or less aware of at least some of her husband’s activities, but preferring not to know anything for sure.
No, Fredo had nothing to do with Vito’s shooting, beyond being powerless to stop it. When Sollozzo/Tattaglia’s men hit Vito, the best Fredo could show was to fumble with his pistol and drop it.
Paulie, Vito’s usual driver, was the rat. He called in sick that day because part of his job was to provide security. It’s entirely plausible to have Fredo essentially watch the hitmen shoot his father because that’s all he’s capable of doing. Paulie would need to shoot one or more of the hitmen, or get shot himself, to convince the Corleones that he was doing his job. If Paulie had missed, he might get whacked just for incompetance or suspicion. I’m guessing Paulie wasn’t that incompetant, and hence he couldn’t be there, have the hit be a success, and stay alive. As it was, Sonny still sniffed him out (used a contact at the phone company to track his calls), and “Oh, Paulie: You won’t be seein’ him no more.”
No, Fredo wasn’t guilty, just incable. As Sollozzo said, the Don was slippin’. He should never have ventured out alone with the Turk lurking in the shadows. Fredo was such a boob, going out with him as the driver was worse than being alone, more than likely, because Don Vito might have been more vigilant if he’d relied only on himself.
See, the impression that I got was that when he’s first with Kay, it’s not really serious-he’s seeing her, he likes her, but he’s not really “in love” with her, or anything like that. He’s basically dating just to date.
Then he goes to Sicily, and he meets Appolonia, and he just falls for her, hard core. Unlike with Kay, he really does love Appolonia, and I think he may even have had some faint hopes of truly staying out of the business, living in Sicily happily ever after. (Kay probably would have moved on with her life, marrying someone else eventually). Then Appolonia is killed, and that ends that.
So, he realizes he can’t get out of it. He’s stuck. So he goes back, and marries Kay-basically “settling” for a woman who can make him a good wife, but that’s about it. (Maybe it was just me, but Kay’s character always seemed so boring and bland that I really didn’t care what happened between her and Michael).
Personally, if I ever went to a family wedding with a guy, and found out his family was in the Mafia, I think I’d probably stay away.
My SO, Alex B, did his MA thesis on the mythology of The Godfather. Isn’t that the coolest MA thesis ever?
Wow, lot’s of good stuff being discussed. Loopydude’s idea on how Woltz’s “infamia” (sp?) may have contributed to how the horse head thing is a nice concept.
It definitely involved the why. The discussion between Tom and Vito about how to handle Woltz’s refusal is covered in the book and in the TV “Saga” version. Woltz’s weakness was the key to Vito’s decision to go all out against Woltz. It’s a shame it wasn’t included in GF1 (as well as Genco’s deathbed scene).
Let’s see now:
Michael would have killed Fredo immediately upon finding out the betrayal except for their mother still being alive. Fredo knew this and was extremely concerned at their mother’s funeral, fearing for his own life. Michael, the master of hiding his true intent, pretended to make up with Fredo at the funeral. There’s a shot of Michael nodding to Neri at that point: “We’re going to keep him alive for now, but later he goes.” is the understanding.
(Al Neri has a much bigger role in the book and also appears more in the GF2-related segments of the TV “Saga”. His role as Michael’s number 1 guy is frequently overlooked. So Michael relied more on Neri than on Tom.)
Okay, so why did Fredo have to die: that’s the story line of GF2. Michael is basically going downhill. He’s losing it mentally. He’s getting more and more isolated. (That’s why GF2’s “current” story line ends with Michael alone at Tahoe.)
He has forgotten all of his father’s principles and business savy. He orders the hit of Roth for no justifiable business reason, merely for revenge. Fredo was part of Roth’s plot against Michael. He had to go too.
(It all ties back into the beginning of GF2, where Michael had failed to back Clemenza (leading to his death) in order to further his schemes. Loyalty meant nothing to him anymore.)
Keeping Fredo alive for the time being, like with Carlo in GF2, also makes others think that Michael isn’t going to go all out for revenge.
The crucial change in Michael that led him to come back to the family was the hit attempts on his father. “I’m with you Pop.”
So marrying a Sicilian girl was entirely in line with this turnabout.
The core question is really: why did he go looking for Kay, esp. since he had been back in the US for several years?
My opinion is that he was starting to tire again of his father’s business and was looking again on getting out. Marrying Kay would be one part of that. Going legit and becoming just a casino owner would be another part.
But it is clear that his whole heart wasn’t really into either of those. He would be unable to avoid his destiny.
(This internal conflict in Michael was apparently supposed to be a major part of GF3, and certain key scenes in it with Michael and Kay arguing over this were ruinied by Keaton’s awful acting. It’s a mystery. Keaton is a good actress, but in GF1 and GF3 she just stunk.
She really shines at the end of the TV “Saga” when she is shown lighting candles during the closing credits. Kay had changed as well. Nice touch.)
[And one of these days, someones going to have to explain to me how Johnny Ola became a Soprano.]
It would help if the stablehands went home at night, of course.
Are you guessing that it was Luca, or was that in the book? “Luca–need you to catch the red eye to the Coast and do something for me…”
Another cool thing about this episode, is that the family’s first offer is non-violent: just an exchange of favors. Put our friend in your movie, and we make your union problems go away. If everyone would just be reasonable, no horses would have to die. (It also leads to more questions…how does one gain that much control over a labor union, anyway?)
He DIDN’T go looking for Kay, assuming that she wouldn’t want him back.
Kay called Michael’s mother, to find out how Michael was doing, and she invited Kay out to the family compound, ostensibly for a visit with Mama Corleone. While there, of course, she met Michael, as Mrs. Corleone had planned. Michael and Kay started dating, and eventually Michael proposes, more or less saying “Well, I have to get married and have kids sometime, so you’ll do as well as anyone”. For some reason, Kay agrees.
Minor nitpick: Michael was only back from Sicily a year before he went to find Kay.
I assume he was mourning for a while.
How come Michael wasn’t a big slut like his two brothers?
Damn, I really have to read the book again. It’s been so long!
Question-what is the difference between the movies, and the “TV saga”? Is it the way they’re broken up, or whatever?
Because Michael is all about self-control. He drinks water when others drink wine. When he finds out about the assassination attempt on his father, he goes to the hospital and calmly sorts things out while Sonny is punching walls. His emotions are much more tightly controlled than Sonny’s - who shouts and gets angry - and Fredo - who cries. It’s this inner control that means he’s the natural successor to The Don.
As was stated earlier it is a joy to watch Pacino act with incredible subtlety in this movie. He seems so incapable of it now. Just watching it about a week ago and I was struck by his performance while confronting Carlo. When he tells him that he knows all about it but he wants to hear it from Carlo just watch his face. When Carlo says it was Barzini he doesn’t move but something changes. You know that until that moment he didn’t know 100% that Carlo was guilty and that Carlo just signed his own death warrant.
I am also a defender of GFIII. I liked it but didn’t love it. The main problem I had was it made you suspend disbelief too much. 30 mob bosses gunned down by helicopter? How often does that happen? :rolleyes: I had some similar problems with GFII. For instance, when Roth is hit it always takes me right out of a the movie. Mob hit men are not terrorist suicide bombers. They want to get away after the hit. No mob hit man would walk up and shoot someone when there was no way to get out alive.
That bothered me a bit too, for the same reason.
Two questions I’ve always had:
(1) Luca Brazi: the tough guy who gets garrotted…he did something terrible in the book…what was it?
(2) After Michael kills the police captain and the other guy in the restaurant, and the inter-family gang war starts, there is that scene where the piano player (at one of the Corleone familie’s safe houses) plays a romantic piece of music-while you see gangsters getting shot, blown apart, or otherwise sent to their demise. Anybody know what that p[iece of piano music was?
The piano player is Carmine Coppola, Francis Coppola’s father. He composed much of the music for the film and I believe this piece is his composition.
A neat little subtlety I discovered the other day:
At Connie’s wedding there’s a short scene where Mama Corleone is dragged up to sing (followed by Old Man, who also sings). The song is Luna Mezzo Mare (Dean Martin did a cover version, with slightly pleasanter lyrics). You can find the lyrics here. It’s a mother and daughter singing about her wish to get married and her mother’s warnings that any future husband with razor/hammer/plow her. Nice touch.