Let's Analyze the Hell out of The Godfather Saga (here be spoilers)

Cafe Society
101

I don’t know that it’s stated in the movie that Kay is Protestant, just implied. In the book it is definite. At the very end of the book, she has converted to Catholocism because then she can hope to save Michael by praying for his soul.

Ave Dementia – Ms. Ryder was supposed to play Mary. When she became ill – IIRC it was not just a virus but pretty much complete exhaustion – they had nobody and took Ms Coppola. To go search for a real actress would have delayed production impossibly, since everything else was ready to go and the clock was ticking. In answer to your other question, in part III Michael starts to feel sorry for himself and wants to try to atone for his evil with the church. I didn’t buy it.

102

Confession: I only saw the last five minutes of Part III (“Dad?”).

I don’t think Michael needed to publicly own up to the deed for the message to get out. The families are all suspicious of each other, and all perfectly willing to kill when the situation calls for it, so when Fredo goes out fishing with one of Michael’s right-hand men (Neri?) and then has a “boating accident,” they get the message load and clear. The ones who are naive or in active denial, like Connie, believe the ‘boating accident’ story, while the other families all understand what really happened.

103

err… ‘loud and clear’.
And even if they don’t know who was in the boat with Fredo, they all probably know that Fredo turned on Michael, so when Fredo is taken to Michael’s private compound in Tahoe and meets with an ‘accident’, the situation is still pretty clear.

104

I think Fredo was killed not so much because of the betrayal, but because the betrayal was known inside and outside of the family. Michael just couldn’t be seen as tolerating it forever. Even the timing of the death is a message in itself, that he was so cold he could wait for years, and then off his own brother before their mother’s corpse has gone cold.

105

Also in Part III is the character of Vincent, Sonny’s son by Lucy (the Bridesmaid at the begining of Part I). Not only is Vincent groomed as Michael’s successor, but he and Mary fall in love. Anthony, Michael’s son, is an opera singer now.

Mary is killed in the end (I forgot the exact details), and the end of the movie shows Michael alone in a chair in Italy. He slumps and falls on the ground, dead.

If I got anything wrong, I’m sure others will correct me. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movie, which I only saw once.

106

Geez, so much stuff being talking about…

  1. “Carmella” More trivia questions:
    Vito never called his oldest son ____?
    What actor had the same name as his character?

  2. About “The Godfather Saga”. It was an re-editing of GF1 and GF2 for TV. Aired originally on NBC??? Goes by several names “GF Epic”, etc. It runs sometimes on basic cable channels. Quite a bit longer than both movies together. The main change is that the story is sequentialized. So all the De Niro-Vito stuff comes before the Brando-Vito stuff. (Except the Vito birthday flashback given at the end of GF2.)

Some extra scenes included of note (to me):

There’s a lot more of young Vito’s escapades with Don Fanucci, including one failed hit on Fanucci that Vito witnesses. Vito goes to see a guy to get the gun. This guy’s kid plays the GF theme on a flute. He is asked his name: it’s Carmine Coppola!

There’s a scene where a young Jewish hood is brought in to meet young Vito who dubs the kid “Hyman Roth”. This is set just before (?) the visit of the slumlord to the new Genco office.

The Genco deathbed scene: it takes place the night of Connie’s (first) wedding. A nice scene.

The powwow between Tom and Vito after Tom visit’s Woltz. (Which leads to the horse head scene.) Oh: and a bit more of the child actress at Woltz’s estate which makes Woltz’s perversion clearer.

More on Michael and Kay’s trysting before the hit on Vito.

The ride Clemenza takes Paulie on is incredibly extended. Including Clemenza’s big lunch.

More on what happened to Fabrizio (the Sicilian traitor) including the bombing at his pizza store in Buffalo. (Set in the GF2 era time.)

Al Niri showing “tough love” to the owner of the casino they take over at the beginning of GF2.

And an hour or two more of Other Interesting Things.

Things deleted: The Obvious Stuff: nudity (notably the wedding night scene), language, some violence, etc. The weird: the conversation between Michael and Fredo in Havanna at the streetside cafe is shortened. So Fredo never asks Michael how to order the drinks in Spanish, etc. I have no idea why unless it’s just extra cutting by the cable channels to create more ad time.

I also suspect (though my memory may be faulty) that the garden scene between Vito and Michael (“We’ll get there Pop.”) contains some alternate dialogue.

I think a DVD of the saga, without the TV editing would be great. There was a VHS compilation of the saga with all 3 films in order, but I haven’t (nor would I want to) see it.

  1. Why didn’t Barzini realize that Vito would know that Michael was being set up? Because Barzini is the loser and Vito is the winner.

It’s basic storytelling. You take thousands of Italian thugs in NYC and track them over the years. Many end up dead, in jail, going straight, etc. A very select few make it as head of a family. Of the heads, one is the best. That’s the one you tell the story about it. Who’s going to read a book that ends in chapter 2 when Stupid Jimmy gets whacked for skimming?

Note that Barzini is a relatively minor character. He is shown during the wedding but we don’t learn his name or who he is. He really doesn’t really appear until the meeting of the family heads. His story, and why he is the loser, is not that important.

  1. The hit on Roth is completely believable. If you read the book it is clear that there are large numbers of men who know they and/or their families are doomed. By carrying out a suicidal act, they can protect their families. Note how Tom points out this very idea to Frankie Pentangeli when he visits him. A somewhat similar scheme was used to “exonerate” Michael in the book.

Note that the guy was highly unlikely to have been an actual pro-buttonman. I consider the way it was carried out to be amatuerish, simply because that is what it was.

  1. About Michael re-uniting with Kay.

From the linked GF1 transcript:
“MICHAEL:I’ve been back a year. Longer than that, I think.” And I could have sworn he said “a few/couple years …” Oops.

(I also notice that the transcript includes extra scenes from the saga.)

GF1 clearly has him going to New England to find her. BrotherCadfael’s version might be from the book. I don’t recall that.

  1. About Connie in GF3. She has become The Dragon Lady of the family. A person to be feared. What she says and what she knows are two different things. She would naturally know what happened to Fredo but wouldn’t confirm she knew it. A completely unbelievable change in personality. Becoming the maternal family head is okay, that was set up in GF2. But a ruthless poisoner, etc.? Nah, she’s weak like Fredo.
107

According to a GREAT book I recently read, Vito Corleone= Anthony Accardo.
Accardo was based in Chicago, rather than New York, but the personal history and personality of Accardo seem to have been inspirational.

(The book is called The Outfit, by Gus Russo.)

108

Wow, thanks for the compliment. :slight_smile:

109

Has anybody else ever noticed the similarity between Vito and King David (of biblical fame) in the “I will not be the one to break the peace” scene?
In the Bible David’s greatest ordeal is the rebellion of his beloved son Absalom. During the rebellion David has to flee Jerusalem and is mocked/cursed by a man named Shimei while fording a river with his fellow evacuees. Later, Absalom is trapped in a tree and David’s cousin/general Joab, against David’s very explicit orders, kills Absalom with darts. However, David agrees not to seek retribution for the acts committed during the war or for the death of his son.
Don Vito also agrees not to seek retribution or revenge for the death of his son, BUT on his death bed his orders to Solomon (whom he never saw succeeding him) are clear: clip them both (though it sounds classier in the “let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace”).
I’ve wondered if the Davidian reference is intentional.
Other things I’ve wondered about the series:

*In GF3, why is Vincent a bastard? What purpose does it serve? They could have just as easily used one of Sonny’s legitimate sons.

*Why the line “Michael Corleone says hello” from a hitman who knows that it’s not on Michael’s orders? (This is the most confusing aspect of GF2 to me.)

*What about seeing his brother made Pentangeli recant? (In one explanation I read, Pentangeli had a mistress and illegitimate children in Sicily under his brother’s protection; he knew that if he broke omerta, his brother would kill them.)
Other theories: he feared the Corleones would kill his brother, he feared his brother would kill him, or just Old World shame at the loss of personal honor.

*Who killed the whore in the senator’s bed? (GREAT PERFORMANCE by G. D. Spradlin, incidentally [particularly his pronunciations of “Antony V-aye-toe Corlee-own” and later “Mr. Cor-lee-own-ee…”]).

*Why did Connie hate Michael so much when killing Carlo was almost a gift to her (terrible man, stupid and a wifebeater)? I understood her rage and grief in GF1, but you’d think she’d have calmed down by GF2. (I remember that in the book she went to her mother and father and told about the beatings and they laughed at her; she asked Vito if he ever beat her mother and he just responds “she never needed it”- only Sonny had any sympathy for her.)

*Was there ever a real event in the history of organized crime similar to the whaching of all the dons in GF1 or the chopper strike in GF3? (Best acting in GF3- Michael in insulin shock revealing his emotions re: Fredo and Abbadando [a role that Frank Sinatra, who once verbally berated Puzo at the time of GF1 over the Fontaine character, actually lobbied to play].)

*Wasn’t the hit on Fanucci awfully easy?

*When Vincent refers to Zaza as a “fag”, is it just an insult or was Zaza secretly gay?

*Most of GF3 was based on the real life Vatican banking scandals, P2, and conspiracy theories of the death of JP1, though some MAJOR liberties have been taken with the real people. Was there actually Mafia involvement in the scandals?

110

Isn’t Anthony’s age a bit off in GF3? He was born about 1949 and yet in 1979 he’s going to Sicily to begin his opera career (is that a common place to begin an operatic career?). Don’t most opera singers begin as teenagers or, at oldest, their early 20s?

It’s really only Sofia that I can’t stand in GF3. Much of the plot is actually interesting.

111

[QUOTE=Sampiro]
*Was there ever a real event in the history of organized crime similar to the whaching of all the dons in GF1 or the chopper strike in GF3?

[QUOTE]

Not of the chopper strike, but yes, a great whacking of the old school Dons took place in 1931, according to the article I just read. Salvatore Maranzano was an early Mafia crime boss, who managed to carve out a nice crime kingdom in the 1920s. He’s also credited with establishing the Five Families, enforcing the rule of silence, and outlawing unauthorized killings. He was the only “Boss of Bosses” to ever control all the Mafia activity. Of course that didn’t last very long. :smiley: According to that article, in 1931, the Five bosses had him killed and reorganized things:

A lot of that seems to have happened during a war they had going on.

112

Well, I screwed that up. :dubious:

This quote is from the article I linked to about Salvatore Maranzano:

Everything else within the quote box is my own summary of the info.

113

I’ll admit the first time I saw this movie many years ago, I just assumed that it was what it appeared to be - the senator killed the girl. But since then, I re-watched it and it’s clear it was a set-up. The Corleones knew the senator was seeing the girl and they drugged him and killed her.

I don’t think it was so much sympathy (I’m sure Sonny wouldn’t have hesitated to beat his own wife) as it was anger that Carlo would dare to hit his sister. Sonny would have seen that as a sign of disrespect to the Corleones.

114

Ahh but here’s the rub, it wasn’t a suicide mission. The hit man is Rocco Lampone and he shows up alive and well in GodFather III. He must have the same Gene the old Don had in taking multiple slugs and surviving.

(Actually If you want a good parody of that see SCTV’s take on the GodFather when Guy is ambushed and machine gunned for what seems like three minutes)
What I like about the series as a whole are the minor characters that appear throughout. In part III the cake is brought in by none other than Enzo the Baker. The Twins (I believe Tom’s) show up in all three movies. Willy Cicci is shown in part I doing the Hit in the revolving door scene and later is part of Pentangilis gang. A nice touch as all the hits would have only been done by Clemenza’s men. (Sal was already outted as a traitor)

There are tonnes of little references to small characters that give a feeling of reality and continuity.

Favorite quotes:
“We are bigger than US steel”
“Leave the gun, take the canoli”
“Exterminated? You better watch you don’t get yourself exterminated” (They practically tell Paulie he’s through)
“For old times sake Tom?” (Great bit of acting you almost feel sorry for old Sal)
“I don’t want his mother to see him like this” (This scene alwasy gets me)

115

I was playing cricket at the weekend and during the tea break we were talking about the Godfather. (thought you US dopers would like the image)
I was saying how much i love the lighting in both 1 and 2. Naturally lit or looking as naturally lit as possible - and one of the guys asked why I thought it was shot that way.
Now other than ‘to look natural’ and for greater contrast between the jolly-up at the wedding and the wheeler-dealing indoors, i couldnt come up with anything.
Remember the lamp in the room where Michael and Kay argue?
Does Coppolla talk about it in the dvds?
Any other technical views on the movies?

Also I heard an interview years ago on Radio 4 with the soundscape guy (sorry cant remember his name) who went to Coppolla with the idea of the train noise replacing music in the restaurant scene to impend the shooting.

It always bugs me that Michael didnt follow instructions and put his hands to his side and drop the gun - he throws it.

Can’t remember 3 very much except the scene that Little Steven impersonates in the Sopranos -‘just when i thought i was out- they pull me back in’
and the Sofia Coppolla/Elvis Costello connection. Isn’t Mary playing ‘Miracle Man’ or something from the 1st album at some point? Then years later she has Bill Murray karaoke to ‘What’s So Funny? etc’ Interesting choice.
If those are the things I (half) remember, it cant be a very good movie.

116

I notice this every time. Also Michael doesn’t follow the plan, in that he doesn’t come out of the bathroom blasting – he resumes the conversation for a while. I think Coppola is just messing with us, and building tension.

117

Actually, this is also from the book. Michael WAS told to come out of the bathroom blasting, but determined that Sollazzo was so (rightfully) paranoid that, had Michael even twitched, Sollazzo would have cut him down. So, he sits down, listens for a few minutes more (without comprehending, because he was so keyed up), and THEN shoots.

As for dropping/throwing, who cares? He left the gun in the restaraunt, as instructed.

118

I’m afraid not. Rocco’s very much dead by Part 3.

Enzo the baker is my favourite character. I named my cat after him and every time I see him I say “It is Enzo! The baker!”

Also, I went to Sicily last month for two weeks. I hope everyone’s sufficiently jealous.

119

Sorry don’t buy it. Didn’t read the book but it would seem false there too. I might be reading too much into it but I have never heard of any kamikazee mob hits IRL. I do come from New Jersey so I have a passing knowledge of such things. Its in the blood :wink: . If you can come up with some real examples maybe I might see it.

I see someone has already refuted this but even if this were true it doesn’t change my point. Roth had a large police escort. The hitman would at best be arrested if not outright killed. The mafia isn’t big into noble self sacrifice.

120

I always felt it was simple. If Pentangeli went ahead and testified, his brother was as good as dead.

I always thought it was Al Neri, who you can see pass by the doorway and who Tom nods to as he passes.

QUOTE=Sampiro]
*Why did Connie hate Michael so much when killing Carlo was almost a gift to her (terrible man, stupid and a wifebeater)? I understood her rage and grief in GF1, but you’d think she’d have calmed down by GF2. (I remember that in the book she went to her mother and father and told about the beatings and they laughed at her; she asked Vito if he ever beat her mother and he just responds “she never needed it”- only Sonny had any sympathy for her.)

[/QUOTE]

Why does the abused party in any abusive relationship stay in it?

He seemed to be awfully conplacent, either because he felt he was so old that nobody would bother trying to off him at this point, or he was so secure in his power that he didn’t think he had any enemies left?

That and Vito was introduced by Tomossino, who seemed to know Fanucci, so Fanucci figured vito was alright.

I didn’t see anything homosexual abotu Zaza, so I assume it’s an insult, insintuating he’s not a real man.