Let's do the Slut Walk again

[Zyada]

@olivesmarch4th

I’d take it even further than that. I don’t know why people continue to use the false equivalence of theft when the current research literature indicates that rape is one of the most traumatic events a person can experience, resulting in dramatically higher rates of PTSD than other traumatic events. It’s used as a standard instrument of political oppression for a reason, folks -

I agree completely. I only used car theft because of the statement upthread about locking your car.

[Spice_Weasel]

@Zyada

I agree completely. I only used car theft because of the statement upthread about locking your car.

I figured you would. By ‘‘people’’ I meant Chessic Sense and others who really love the theft analogy.

Which isn’t to say I’m not all for reducing the risk of rape and sexual assault. But I don’t think we have any evidence whatsoever that women who dress provocatively are at greater risk of sexual assault than those who don’t.

We had a thread here once, soliciting stories of rape and sexual assault from women. A handful of men crashed the thread when the women talked about how difficult it was for them to trust strange men following their rape, and the extra precautionary measures they took to avoid getting raped again. The women were derided as being sexist and judgmental for doing such things as avoiding strange men that gave them a predatory vibe. As far as I can tell, it’s impossible to win. If you’re raped, it’s because you’re engaging in risky behavior, and if you avoid potentially risky situations, then you’re a judgmental bitch.

[Boyo_Jim]

Some protests are just asking to be raped, and for a good beat down by riot police too!

[astro]

@spark240

But risk and blame are distinct concepts. Every time you get in your car you’re taking on risk, but if some lunatic crashes into you while you’re stopped at a light, the blame is all on him.

This is the main fault line in these discussions. Your example is quite true in the context you posited, but in a real world context of choosing to adopt various dress styles or personal sobriety behaviors while socializing with the opposite sex, I think they are much more entangled in many people’s minds, and some might view some personal behavior choices as more along the lines of agreeing to drag race than sitting at the light.

The logical notion that no one is ever personally to “blame” for being harmed or molested by engaging in risky behaviors is somewhat unique to sexual assault. Beyond this, the slippery slope issue of what is “OK risky” and “too risky” is so subjective and contextual it’s effectively impossible to parse out. It’s an impossible landscape to navigate.

As a hypothetical question. If a woman chooses to attend a private party at 2 AM in the morning, hosted by gang bangers or equivalently dangerous types of people, and drinks and drugs herself into insensibility, and wakes up the next morning to find she has been penetrated and molested, is she to blame for this assault in any way because of the behavioral risks she choose to take? Legally and criminally, of course not, the fault is all on the perpetrators of the molestation. Beyond this, however, should she have any personal responsibility for what happened to her? If the answer is always “no” regardless of behavior I think you begin to risk making women moral infants.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Chessic_Sense

Why is it that when a fireman says “Don’t leave cooking unattended,” or a nurse says “always use a condom,” it’s sensible advice, but when a cop says “Lock your car doors” or “Don’t dress provocatively”, it’s blaming the victim?

For the reasons already mentioned, and plus, “Don’t dress provocatively” doesn’t even mean the same things to every person. For some people, a skirt a few inches above the knee=provocative and for others it’s pretty normal. For some, tight jeans are provocative. It doesn’t make sense because short of a burqa, there’s no way anyone can even do it.

[Zyada]

@astro

Some people take the position that if they let the door open even the smallest crack on anyone being able to link appearance or behavior with getting raped it will allow some shifting of responsibility, however large or small, onto the victim.

Let me ask you something. Do you think that there is anything a victim of rape can do that would erase or reduce the guilt of the rapist?

If you do, can you think of any other crime where the actions of the victim modifies in some way the guilt of the perpetrator?

[Zyada]

@astro

As a hypothetical question. If a woman chooses to attend a private party at 2 AM in the morning, hosted by gang bangers or equivalently dangerous types of people, and drinks and drugs herself into insensibility, and wakes up the next morning to find she has been penetrated and molested, is she to blame for this assault in any way because of the behavioral risks she choose to take? Legally and criminally, of course not, the fault is all on the perpetrators of the molestation. Beyond this, however, should she have any personal responsibility for what happened to her? If the answer is always “no” regardless of behavior I think you begin to risk making women moral infants.

Would you go to a party with known murderers and thieves and drink yourself senseless?

I think the likelihood of any person getting into the situation that you are describing is so remote as to be laughable.

[drastic_quench]

@miss_elizabeth

Dressing provocatively has never been shown to cause rape, that’s the difference. Do you have evidence otherwise?

All I know is that I never raped a frumpy girl.

[Zyada]

@drastic_quench

All I know is that I never raped a frumpy girl.

So what you are saying is that if you were in the right situation you would be a rapist?

[miss_elizabeth]

@drastic_quench

All I know is that I never raped a frumpy girl.

If this is a joke, it’s disgusting, and it says a lot about your character.

I am a survivor of rape. Many women on this board are survivors of rape. This thread was opened (in MPSIMS!) to discuss rape awareness and work by survivors and advocates to stop rape, and stop the dismissal of rape. How could you think this atmosphere is the right place for this joke?

Why is anyone even trying to debate this here? Is it even possible to have a discussion anywhere on this board about rape that doesn’t devolve into this apologist nonsense? RAPE IS NOT LIKE MUGGING

[miss_elizabeth]

@astro

This is the main fault line in these discussions. Your example is quite true in the context you posited, but in a real world context of choosing to adopt various dress styles or personal sobriety behaviors while socializing with the opposite sex, I think they are much more entangled in many people’s minds, and some might view some personal behavior choices as more along the lines of agreeing to drag race than sitting at the light.

The logical notion that no one is ever personally to “blame” for being harmed or molested by engaging in risky behaviors is somewhat unique to sexual assault. Beyond this, the slippery slope issue of what is “OK risky” and “too risky” is so subjective and contextual it’s effectively impossible to parse out. It’s an impossible landscape to navigate.

As a hypothetical question. If a woman chooses to attend a private party at 2 AM in the morning, hosted by gang bangers or equivalently dangerous types of people, and drinks and drugs herself into insensibility, and wakes up the next morning to find she has been penetrated and molested, is she to blame for this assault in any way because of the behavioral risks she choose to take? Legally and criminally, of course not, the fault is all on the perpetrators of the molestation. Beyond this, however, should she have any personal responsibility for what happened to her? If the answer is always “no” regardless of behavior I think you begin to risk making women moral infants.

This is NOT Great Debates. If you want to debate hypotheticals, can’t you take it somewhere else?

[twickster]

This has gotten out of hand. I’m going to close this. If you’d like to start a new thread in the Pit or Great Debates, please do.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator