Debatable. Jesus certainly was not born on December 25th, and there is no record of Christmas being celebrated at all in early Christian history. Much of the tradition is a fairly obvious continuation of the Roman holiday Saturnalia. The Christmas tree, gift giving, and mistletoe clearly come from other traditions. There are many other religions that celebrate at this time, and these celebrations predate Christmas. A more likely scenario, is that early Christians co-opted other winter celebrations for their own use.
And Jesus’ birth just isn’t a big part of Scripture, either. To the extent that it is, I consider it more to be narrative backfill to flesh out the humbleness of his background. To be certain, Christmas is not the most important Christian holiday even today.
Like Celtic solstice celebrations similar to Saturnalia. The same thing happened to Halloween, (a Celtic ritual, but I wouldn’t call it part of any “religion” in the strict sense.) The church had to make a stretch of it with All Souls’ Day and All Saints’ Day.
There’s one thing I have to respond to: equating me with Scrooge and the Grinch. Those two characters hated Christmas, and I love it. In fact I love it so much that I wish everybody would celebrate it. I hear people say that we’ve forgotten the “true meaning” of the holiday, that we’ve made it “too commercial” . . . and I’m saying that it’s the “commercial” aspect of it – the buying of gifts, the trees and lights – that have more authentic meaning for people than a baby in a manger. There are many of us who aren’t Christians who celebrate the holiday anyway, but there are still too many who won’t, simply because they’re not Christians. None of my Jewish relatives have anything to do with Christmas, and I consider it their loss (Hanukkah doesn’t “hold a candle” to Christmas). When I was a kid we celebrated – and received gifts for – both holidays; we had a tree and lit the Menorah; we lived in a mostly Christian neighborhood, and my parents didn’t want us to feel left out.
So I have no problem with Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus. What I do have a problem with is the criticism that the holiday is “too commercial,” and we have forgotten the “true meaning” of the holiday . . . the presents and Santa and the trees and lights ARE the “true meaning,” just as much as the birth of Jesus. And “peace on earth, good will to men” should not be associated with a particular time of year.
(And it should go without saying that I don’t approve of trampling people to death to get a gift that’s on sale.)
Yes, it’s time to update it to a universal holiday that everyone can embrace called Winter Shopathon. It would go something like this:
"I’m Ryan Seacrest and we’re back in Rockefeller Center celebrating the sixteenth day of Winter Shopathon with you and your family. This year Winter Shopathon is brought to you by our friends at Pepsi, Mastercard, and Target. There is no better way to have a Merry Shopathan than with a nice, refreshing Pepsi.
And now under the Giant Cash Register in Rockefeller Center, let’s join Rihanna and the Shopathon Carolers for some traditional carols:
[INDENT]'Tis the season to buy gifts,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Consumer spending gives profits a lift,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
.
.
.
That was fabulous and now a message from our very good friends at Target…"[/INDENT]
Somebody said, and I don’t know who it was but I wish I did, because I would love to give them the attribution they deserve, “If there is a war on Christmas, Christmas is winning. It has annexed November already, and is making inroads on October.” Truer words were never spoken. As for me, I have fun with my presents and my tree and tinsel and never mind what others are up to.
Back in Katlick school, they taught me that Easter was THE most important Christian holiday - Jesus being born didn’t change anything, Jesus rising from the dead did. Pentecost was next, as the start of Christianity as a movement. Christmas was at #3. Seems to me you could argue that Good Friday or perhaps Holy Week taken as a whole is also, religiously speaking, more important to Christians than Christmas. The War-on-Christmas people rarely mention Easter, though, and never any other Christian holy days; maybe they don’t get the same emotional response from the masses that they do for Christmas.
No, it just means that they aren’t common here. Persecution fantasies are common among Christians.
Profits are the motive. Generic terms like “Holiday” and “Family” apply to more people and pose the least risk of offense, which means it is less likely to drive away customers. Especially since there’s more than one holiday this time of year.
I have nothing against profits. 'Tis the season to buy things for our loved ones . . . and help others earn a living.
True. Cite.
Really? Well, there are plenty of Christians who post on SDMB, it being American and left wing, a demographic that you observe to be mostly Christian. Why are these particular ones immune to this common problem?
Turns out that people didn’t like it, though, so they switched back. I approve. It’s not a freaking family tree, now is it? A family tree is where you write down your ancestors. It’s not a dead tree you wrap wires around and stuff with packages wrapped in paper for kindling. No, it’s a Christmas tree.* Retailers can sell other holiday fire hazards for the other holidays, like menorahs and, I dunno, gasoline soaked voodoo dolls.
*Although I guess I don’t object to you calling it whatever you want if you’re really going to insist. You’d just be wrong and that’s not a crime. I don’t have to approve, though.
Because they are mostly left wing. And because they know they’d get laughed at.
OK, this is getting into one of those interminable back and forth things nobody wants to read. You do realize that your argument has big holes in it? No, you probably don’t. I’ll point one out and if you say “oh no it isn’t” I’m dropping you because I’m not here to re-enact a Monty Python sketch.
A: Most American left wingers are Christians.
B: Many, if not most Christians suffer a persecution complex. (Implied: this leads them to believe in a so-called War on Christmas.)
C: Many of the posters on this message board are Americans, and mostly left wing. (I know you didn’t actually come right out and say this within this particular thread, but I implied it and you didn’t deny it. According to what you said in point A, the reasonable conclusion here is that: Many Straight Dope posters believe the War on Christmas is real.)
So, where do we go from there? According to you:
D: Therefore, nobody on the Straight Dope Message Board has ever started a thread claiming there is a War on Christmas for fear of being laughed at.
It doesn’t follow. If they are irrational (point B) they wouldn’t care if you laughed. And it doesn’t matter if they are left wing or not, according to you they are Christians and therefore prey to a persecution complex.
Personally, sure, I believe that some Christians do suffer from such a complex. I also think some atheists-- you, for instance-- possibly do too.
Yeah, as a Catholic I get a little dismayed when people who barely seem to care about Easter get all sentimental and pious about Christmas, turning self-righteous when someone says, “Happy Holidays.”
There is a War-on-Easter, isn’t there? Didn’t Macy’s have a “Fertility Day” sale?
OK “no it isn’t” will get me dropped, but what will “[cite]?” get me? I’ll agree with you on C. (and frankly, it’s the hardest to cite with any real statistics, so I’m throwing you a bone here), I’m willing to go along with you on B., although I’m not totally convinced, but I’m definitely gonna need a cite on A., and that is, IMHO, the most cite-able one of the three.
I don’t mean to argue the point for Dir Trihs, but I think you left out the proper modifier on “B”. That is, many right-wing Christians suffer from a persecution complex. Since group “A” is not a subset of group “B”, the fact that no threads on SDMB have been started is fairly obvious.
I don’t know that this is true, but I do know that the “War on Christmas” is a yearly theme on FOX News, and I would call them a right-wing organization.
As an atheist living in the south, I can tell you that it’s not a complex because it is very real. I have had friends with neighbors inviting their daughter over for book burnings because they discovered that they were teaching their children “bad things”. I know people who have been demoted for bringing the “wrong ideology” and specifically had their beliefs brought up. In parts of this country, it is considered 100% acceptable to discriminate against non-believers.
Meanwhile O’Reilly gets wound up over “Happy Holidays” replacing “Merry Christmas”.
Only in the lingerie department.
You’ll need to ask Der Trihs for the cite because A is his:
“Why would left wingers wage a war on Christmas? The vast majority of them in this country ARE Christian.”
I’ll say it’s not a far-out assumption, IMO, but “vast majority” is probably an overstatement. The majority of Americans are indeed some sort of Christian per the CIA Factbook (Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%). I don’t know the political split and don’t know how to find it out.
Yeah, B is Der Trihs’, too, so maybe he did mean to put in “right wing” to his claim that many Christians suffer from a persecution complex. I dunno. He’s awfully terse, maybe he’s cutting random bits out of his posts. That would explain a couple things.
I’d think that what with the SDMB being so American and all, and America being so religious, it would be odd if there wasn’t at least a couple observant Christians who vote Republican showing up. The claim that I’ve seen repeated is that the SDMB leans left, not that its participants are exclusively left wing.
I could on because I wanted to talk about how I don’t watch Fox News and how I honestly have only heard about the WoC here and from SD people I added on Facebook. Also, about the shoe on the other foot or the grass on the other side or whatever: If you have sincere feelings of persecution, surely the religious can as well, yes? I haven’t personally ever heard a sincere Christian-- Bill O’Reilly doesn’t count here-- claim to feel persecuted by atheist minority, though.
Gotta run. I suspect I’m going to wish I had time to proofread. Apologies if this is more crap than usual.
If the religious had to actively hide their beliefs in order to avoid being demoted and having their tires slashed, then yes. Otherwise, it is a false equivalence.
This seems to be an appropriat article for this thread.
I don’t know if any Christian feels feelings of persecution, anywhere. I suggested that some sincerely may. IMO you’re cavilling by demanding that they may only have feelings of persecution if they believe they may be demoted and have their tires slashed.
Let’s say that a government employee who happens to be a Christian-- this is hypothetical, because I’m too lazy to look for examples-- is not permitted to display a big ugly crucifix at her work station. At the next station, somebody has an equally ugly Darwin fish and that’s OK. Would she have a legit gripe?
It’s not as bad as one’s job or tires at risk but as I understand the situation in America something like this could arise.
Did you read the Christmas was a Riot article linked upthread? It wasn’t bad but I didn’t read the whole thing. Restad seems like a bit of a dork:
"Sooner or later, on television or in church, its arrival brings individuals and culture into direct confrontation with ideals. It causes us to examine relationships with our families, our community and our faith. At Christmastide, we must, directly or even by omission, set our priorities, establish our tolerances, and square our hopes with reality.”
Sounds like bullshit to me.