Lets Talk LAW SCHOOL!!!

In My Humble Opinion
1

Alright… heres the scoop.

I’n 26, been out of undergrad (BA in Theatre Design and Technology) for 4 years and working steadily since then. 2 years at an entry level audio job for a fairly prominent theatre company in chicago and two years running my own sound design and consulting business. I do OK.

In the last few years I’ve had an itchin to go back to school for something a bit more stable that audio. I like my job, but i definitely see it having an income ceiling and while its GREAT for a single 26 year old dude, I can’t see starting a family on the money I make and the irregularity of freelance work, and the nights and weekends constantly involved.

I have a number of buddies who just finished Law School, and all of them have always thought all along that I’d make a good lawyer. this is informed, i suspect, by the way my brain works. I’m smart-ish, and generally speaking, I am a good, lucid writer and reader. Its always been sort of a long term idea of mine.

So i was hanging out with lawyer friend this weekend and he started prodding my to atleast take the LSATs… Out of curiousity I downloaded a couple of the Princeton Review and other sample LSAT tests and over the next four hours, I aced each and every one of them. Without much of a sweat.

So i think tonight i am going to sign up for the next test (October) and at least take it and see how it goes.

The main problems i see at this point are: at 18-22 i was a lazy unfocused lout. and I have undergrad transcripts to prove it. (GPA in the Mid 2.x’s). I haven’t taken any classes since then, so its still not pretty, buti anticipate that I’ll do pretty well on the LSAT. AND I have a completely solid post academic work history: award nominations in my field, i run my own business, i’m reasonably respected in my community. BUT (and this is the other problem) My current field has about as little to do with the Practice of Law as it does with the Professional Ping Pong circuit. (not much).

I live in Chicago, land of Northwestern and UofC Schools of Law, and i doubt that any LSAT scores could make up for my poor undergrad academic showing, but i’m wondering what you guys think of my chances of getting into a decent program, based on what I’ve offered. so my questions are:

How much are they gonna hold a 4 year old GPA against me?

How much are they gonna hold a THEATRE major against me?

How much is my subsequent (admittedly non-legal) professional experience gonna help?

How much are kick-ass LSAT scores (which I anticipate) gonna help?

Where in the Chicago area would i want to apply, based on what i’ve shared here?

Thanks in advance…

Chris

2

I think all of this depends on the school to which you apply, really. You should hunt around the admission departments of the schools you like and get a feel for what they’re after. Theoretically, your major shouldn’t have an impact, since most schools just want to see somebody with a college degree, period. (It might even help: pre-law is declining as “the” major for law school admission. Last I heard, English was pretty popular with admissions departments, so theatre might not be far off.)

As I understand it, an LSAT of 160 or higher is pretty good for most schools, with a 170 cinching it. Your score will range from 120 (fugettabout it) to 180 (they’d be an idiot not to take you).

As for schools…sounds like you want to stay around Chicago, so as a start, just hit all the schools in the region. Notre Dame isn’t terribly far, either, and has a great reputation.

I’m entering my third year at Ave Maria (only 4 hours from Chicago!), a new school that opened in fall of 2000. My class is pretty unique: since we’re a new school, my class had a pretty diverse background of former engineers, teachers, military men, at least one former NASA guy, and a relatively small portion of people fresh out of undergrad. The school might still be giving out scholarships (to attract students, natch), and our program is excellent, so I’d recommend it under influence of personal bias.

3

Hmmmmmm, I’d hate to steal Bad Hat’s thunder, but could people also give advice for an incoming undergrad freshman as to what he should do to get into a top law school. Bad Hat, if you think this is too much of a hijack say so and I’ll start my own thread.

4

Here’s my two cents on the OP. Bad Hat, you may not believe this, but I think your undergrad major will be looked upon favorably by law school admissions committees. My law school class contained plenty of your “normal” law school majors (English, history, political science, business, etc.) but it also included a math major, a music major, a mechanical engineering major, and there’s a drama major in the class below me. A close friend of mine (who graduated from college with an agriculture degree) served as the student representative on our admissions committee this past year. He told me that our school for the most part uses a formula based upon undergrad GPA and LSAT scores to determine who gets in and who doesn’t. I remember seeing somewhere that the average LSAT score for our class was 158 or so, which I would guess is pretty typical of a lower first tier school. However, Steve told me that the committee did look at an applicant’s undergrad major and their application essay when making “close” calls. In other words, some applicants are clearly in based upon the formula, some are clearly out, and others on the borderline are highly scrutinized. If you really nail the LSAT (160+) your GPA shouldn’t hurt your admissions chances that badly, at least at the University of Kentucky.

5

Gee, pre-law is a major in some schools? My university didn’t have that as a major. I opted for philosophy, and found it to be good preparation for law school.

It really doesn’t matter what your major was. A buddy of mine from law school was a music major in college, and he did just fine, passed the state bar and everything.

A GPA in the mid-2.XX range and a LSAT score of 160+ can get you into many law schools (with a 3.30 and 163 I received 3 scholarship offers), although not necessarily University of Chicago Law School. :wink:

Just don’t set your expectations too high as far as schools are concerned. If you really want to pursue a legal education, then don’t dismiss the less prestigious schools. After all, a legal education is what you make of it, and the school you go to won’t matter that much 10 years down the line. I didn’t go to a top law school, but it is the Alma Mater for a former United States Supreme Court Justice, not to mention a TV court judge:p

I don’t know how professional experience comes into play, although any good experience, legal or not, is a good thing. I went straight from college to law school, but many of my classmates in law school worked after college, some of them working for 20+ years after college.

I say take the LSAT, and in the meantime, think about what you would like to do if you had a law degree. You don’t necessarily have to practice law. I am not a practicing attorney (heck, my bar admission is still pending ;)), but I was hired for my law degree, and my legal experience factors greatly in my responsibilities. Ask yourself, what you you do with your law degree?

6

Don’t assume that law will suddenly make you rich with a lot of spare time on your hands. No sireeee, Bob. Especially if you have student loans (upwards of $130,000 is not unheard of).

Young lawyers work a lot, and it’s hard. They hardly teach you anything practical in law school.

The first year of law school is no cake walk either.

Think long and hard about this. Don’t tread lightly into law. Be certain.

Go to the refernce section of the book store for LSAT guides and guides to law schools with admissions standards.

7

One of the best things you have going for you is your age, and some life experience–yes, I know that college is real life, but admission officers often don’t. Anyway, I went back to law school at 32, my GPA was very good, my LSAT at the lower end of very good, but it was my experience that made the difference. I had my pick of the colleges I wanted to attend (okay, so on the waiting list at one of them, but not rejected), I also didn’t apply simply because the school had a name or was close by. You’re single, move half way across the country it you have to, other places besides Chicago are nice.

The practice of law is great, as long as you find the right type of law for you to practice. My first year in practice was a piece of cake–a bit scary at times because my boss insisted on believing I was competent, but then, he was also always there when I had a question. I don’t work for a big firm, I work for a labor union, so I don’t have to worry about billable hours or a partnership path. I also won’t get rich. But I’m doing what I love and being paid well enough. I have a friend who is a corporate lawyer–all day with contracts and tax stuff–and she loves it. She likes the political games that go hand in hand with advancing in a big firm, she smoozes with the best of them. She was buried in the library most of her first year, researching and writing memos, but she loved that, too. It’s exactly the type of law and the type of atmoshere she wants. And she does make the big bucks. Solo practice, small firm, public interest, district attorney, non-profit, in-house, huge firm, international–these are the things you need to think about when you think about law school, and it will help in figuring out where you want to go to law school. Why go to a name college with no entertainment law classes if you think you want to be an entertainment attorney? Granted, 90% of the classes you take are taken because they are on the bar exam, and people become specialized without ever taking a class in that speciality, but taking a sports law class, or Indian law, or labor law may spark an interest and give you a direction for your law career. Most of the folks I know that left the law left because they never looked beyond being a lawyer, never thought about the kind of law they wanted to practice.

And law school’s not that hard, either. It is a lot of reading, and it’s like reading a different language for a while, then you start to “think like a lawyer”. A cliche, but true. Reading cases becomes second nature, and the analysis falls right into place. Borrow enough money (or look for scholarships) so that you don’t have to work during your first year, especially because you’ve been out of school for a while, it will be worth the money in the long run, and by second year, the reading won’t take as long, so juggling a job won’t be as difficult. Here’s the big hint–get to know your professors. Volunteer in class–the Socratic method is your friend–and stop by their offices after class. They’ll let you know if you’re understanding the material, and talk you through it if you’re not. If you’re just another face in the crowd, they can’t recommend you when they get called for likely job candidates. And getting the job is the whole battle in law school. If the best student in the class has a great job that she hates, and the worst student in the class has a job that she loves–guess who won? And five years after graduation, nobody remembers your rank, and nobody cares.

8

Thanks everyone…

Bearflag, thanks for the dose of reality, though, truth be told, it isn’t anthing i’m taking lightly. I’ve always had an interest in the law, and I’m certainly not envisioning Law School as a get rich scheme.

On the other hand, I have a good sense (based on conversations with my many lawyer friends) that at very least a Law Degree opens doors and presents a lot of opportunities. I’m not even convinced i would practice, but I think i’d like to learn and to have the degree.

I’m certainly not adverse to hard work, and beieve me i’m used to nothing less. Running my own business, constantly hustling up the work, juggling eight projects at the same time, managing my own insurance, taxes, payrole etc. its a couple of full time jobs. And I’m fully prepared to put in my hours with whatever I do.

Like i said, i think my plan now is to think proactively. Things are going well right now and I am living quite comfortably, so i feel like rather than just continuing obliviously, i shold start planning now while i can. Before i get married or get totally burned out and HAVE to make new plans. I just want to have options.

thanks again
CJ

9

Probably as much as if it were yesterday. Most of the schools are ranking whores, even if they don’t admit it publicly. US News ranks, in part, on the credentials of the incoming class, and the school doesn’t get an exception just because your GPA is old.

**

Not at all. I think that’s a fine major for a law student. Several people in my class are theatre majors.

**
My experience is that it helps some if you’re on the bubble, but GPA and LSAT are still the bottom line. If you aren’t within shouting distance of the quality of students they would normally accept, the most interesting life experience probably isn’t going to do much for you.

**
I think LSAT is absolutely the most important thing in the admission process. However, and not to sound overly negative, you need to make sure your definition of kick-ass is correct. Scoring in the 90th percentile means, I think, roughly a 160 or 161. With a mid-2.x GPA, that’s probably good enough to get you into many of the lower first tier schools (going by US News). Score above 165, and you’re opening a lot more doors, but not the top 10, most likely. Score over 170, and I’d take the shotgun approach to all the top schools and see if any of them take.

My own experience: I had a high 2.x gpa. Most of that hit was in the first year and a half of college. For the last 5 semesters I had a 3.4 or something. I scored a 164 and had very mixed results. I got waitlisted at the highest ranked school I applied to, got rejected from the second, got into the rest with scholarships ranging from 0 to $20,000/yr. These are schools ranked from the mid teens to second tier. For what it’s worth, my LSAT was, unfortunately, significantly below what I was scoring on practice tests. I’m not sure that that is a universal rule, but it does seem to be common.

**

I think UC is probably out unless you come really close to 180 and have a rich relative donate them an international airport. Northwestern may or may not work, depending on how well you do. That’s a pretty tough school to get into. From there, it’s a significant drop down to Loyola, Kent, De Paul, etc. Not that those aren’t good schools, but if you’re scoring as high as you seem to be, you can do better (this is all assuming that you want to go to the highest ranked school you can get into, which may not be the case.) There are lots of schools in the mid-west that are well respected, and should be within your range even if you fall short of Northwestern: Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Indiana, Wash U, Notre Dame all come to mind.

ResIpsa, at the risk of coming across like a jerk, which I certainly don’t mean to do, is Ave Maria accredited? If you go there, can you practice outside of Michigan? I was under the impression that it was essentially a specialty school for conservative Catholics.
**
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10

Catholic U Law School student checking in!

I had a 2.XX from Penn State and a 160+ LSAT score. My undergraduate major was political science. With those numbers, and believe me you have to majorly screw around at Penn State to get a 2.XX, I got into every school I applied to. Granted,
I didn’t apply to Harvard or Yale but I applied to solid schools like Rutgers, Villanova, Florida and Miami.

Catholic offered me some $ and the chance to stay in DC. So I decided to go there.

11

FifthYear,

Yeah, we just got our provisional accreditation last month. (This means we get an ABA inspection every year until the permanent one comes, which means an inspection every 5 years.) Everyone was fairly confident we’d get it, as the school has exceeded the ABA minimum standards. The annoying thing was that because we didn’t get it until June, it was an impediment for a lot of students applying for summer jobs; most firms didn’t want to hire students from an unaccredited school.

I can apply out of MI now, which is great since I want to end up in either Philly or Jersey.

As for the conservative Catholics crack…well, that’s the basis of the education, yeah, as in there’s a moral underpinning to the classes. We still learn the basics (and then some…we’ve got 60 required credits), so my Contracts, Torts, etc. classes all look like anybody else’s (with maybe the once-in-a-blue-moon moral discussion). I don’t know if that’s a fair assessment of the students, though. The bulk of us are Catholic, although not everyone’s necessarily a conservative. (I often trumpet myself as the class Communist. :wink: )

12

ResIpsa

60 required credits!? Holy cow, that’s a lot. After first year (29 credits), at my school we’re only required to take a seminar and an ethics course. Everything else is elective.

Anyway, thanks for the response. If I remember correctly from another thread, you’re a 2L, right? Me too. Good luck in the job hunt this fall. With the economy the way it is, I think we’re going to need it.

13

29 Credits? Good heavens.

On a whim, here’s my requirements breakdown:
Torts: 6 credits
Contracts: 6 credits
Civ Pro: 6 credits
Property: 5 credits
Crim Law: 3 credits
Legal Writing/Research: 6 credits over 3 semesters
Moral Foundations of the Law (a seminar taught by Bork): 2 credits
Con Law: 4 credits
Corporations: 4 credits
Fed Tax: 4 credits
Evidence: 3 credits
Crim Pro: 3 credits
Prof Resp: 3 credits
Some mandatory 3rd-year seminar: 2 credits

Oh, and they shoved me on law review, so there’s a mandatory 6 credits of that (1 credit for each of 4 semesters, plus 2 credits for my writing requirement…which is thankfully done.)

14

Bad Hat: I’m a former theatre major with a subpar undergraduate GPA and stellar LSAT score: I just finished my first year at a top-tier law school. Oh, and I’m 26 and a half.

The hamsters are eating my search requests, but I started a thread in GQ a couple years ago entitled, “Hey Lawyers! Tips on Law School Admissions” that got tons of useful, informative, and (let’s face it) incredibly long-winded responses from practicing attorneys. :wink:

15

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31036&highlight=lawyers+tips

There we go

16

Ooo, we’re posting required courses? Here’s what I had:

Civ Pro: 4
Contracts: 4
Torts: 4
Criminal: 3
Property: 4
Con Law: 4
Legal Research & Writing: 6
Income Tax: 4
Wills & Trusts: 4
Evidence: 4
Commercial Law: 4
Business Entities: 4
Crim Pro: 3
Professional Responsibility: 3

For a total of 55 required hours. Of course, you get to choose when you take the last 7 classes (I got all but one of them out of the way in my second year). And if you’re taking the bar exam in Texas, they recommend you take 3 hours of Oil & Gas.

17

Mine:
1st semester:
Torts 4
Contracts 4
Property 4
2nd:
Con Law 4
Civ Pro 4
Crim Law 4
Legal Research and Writing (full year course, 5 credits)

I’m taking “Legal Ethics in Film” to satisfy my ethics requirement, and will take a seminar my third year to satisfy that requirement. Of course, I’ll end up taking nearly all of the required courses you guys mentioned to prepare for the bar.

18

Oddly enough, TheFifthYear and I have identical required courses, as far as number of first year hours, required seminar, and required ethics class are concerned. I guess if you count Professional Responsibility and seminar, we have 34 total required hours here. The 29 hours required in the first year are the usual stuff: Contracts (2 semesters-6 hours), Civil Procedure (2 semesters-6 hours), Torts (fall-4 hours), Property (spring-4 hours), Criminal Law (fall-3 hours) and Constitutional Law I (spring-3 hours). We were also required to take a legal research and writing class which awarded 3 hours of credit for two semesters of work. I guess I can understand why some schools require students to take Evidence, Tax, Trusts & Estates, and corporate law (here it’s called Business Associations) but even if they’re not required most every law student takes those courses because they’re on the bar exam.