I propose we use heterosexually challenged.
Mostly just because having to remember all of the other terms is getting confusing.
I’m fine with using “gay” as an umbrella term. “Same sex” is preferable for legal language dealing with marriage (and other more specific terms in more formal contexts), but “gay” is fine in regular speech.
I just want to check in and say that I appreciate all of your comments on this topic and will defer to the majority opinion among the LGBT community here.
I will, however, clarify that my reason for asking my fellow Dopers to use the term “same-sex marriage” instead of “gay marriage”: it’s just more accurate. (Cf. HoldenCaulfield) As for “LGBT rights”, I just think it’s a good thing to raise the consciousness of the full spectrum of our movement in general. There’s a reason we have a rainbow flag, after all.
What are we, an African tribe? A Borg hive-mind? Those of us in the LGBT community are as complex as everyone else, and are no more a consensus political coalition than the rest of yous guys.
BTW, I have to thank you for your support.
To (over?)simplify it, “queer” basically means “not quite fitting in a gay/straight duality”; similarly, “genderqueer” means “not quite fitting in a male/female duality”, etc. People define themselves as “queer” for all kinds of reasons, be they:
- Gender (a part-time female-to-male transsexual I know uses the term “queer” even though s/he is exclusively attracted to women; neither “lesbian” nor “straight” really works for her all of the time)
- Sexual orientation (“bisexual” implies unwaveringly equal attraction to two opposite genders, without taking orientational fluidity or attraction to transgendered people into account)
- A simple desire to reclaim the word
- The belief that the word can unite the community, referring to everyone outside of the heteronormative identity system without enlisting an endless series of letters that may still fail to include everyone
- Aesthetic reasons (the word “bisexual” sounds ugly and “bi” ain’t too pretty either, not to mention that “bisexual” implies that our orientation is all about sex)
I would not insist on, (or expect), unanimity in in opinions within any group.
However, what I believe outlierrn is actually seeking is a bit of toleration and courtesy from various members of those groups that allows one to use a different term than their preference without being pilloried as rude, abusive, or out of date.
I doubt that outlierrn actually expects to find such universal civility, (I certainly do not), as I know that every group has rude individuals regardless of the overall group’s high qualities as human beings. I suspect, however, that outlierrn’s statement was more a humorous request for tolerance than a demand for lockstep agreement in terminology.
In an analogous mode, I still know a few older people who use the word colored and several who use the word Negro even though they have never discriminated aainst anyone or harbored disrespectful feelings toward anyone based on perceived race. (A couple of them are, themselves, black.) Those are the words that they used in a friendly or neutral expression all their lives and they have simply not had the need to “practice” using a new term. I consider it extremely rude for some twit to jump up and demand that they “correct” their language, as if that will have any effect on civil rights or human interaction.
Yeah, my tongue was half in my cheek. I know people that self identify as fags, not something I would say. many years ago I had to be told that oriental was not PC, I was like ‘ok, my bad, what should I say?’
little people, african american, LGBT, groovy, just tell me. But if it’s going to change fron town to town and bar to bar and week to week then nobody gets to jump on my back and call me names until I actually do something bigoted.
I listened to Obamas press conference today and he totally tap-danced around one of the questions, then I thought ooh probably can’t say tap-danced with this President. Well, I’ve been saying that about politicians for 20 years, and I’d rather stop than risk being mis-understood, but there’s somebody out there who’d be screaming racist if I’d said that in print.
anyway, I really didn’t mean to hijack the thread
so i’m a straight guy, a marine, blah blah…so i figure i’ll give my 2 cents if you choose to take it. i use the words gay, black, retarded, etc., why? because i choose to. i’m not ignorant, racist, prejudiced and all that mumbo jumbo. i’m a cool dude, i try to do the right thing, i respect people, and never judge…but for sure have an opinion. so specificaly when i say “gay” sometimes i say it in a way that means “you’re a dork, a dufus, silly…” and sometimes i use it in reference to someone who is homosexual. so whatever words i choose to use, i choose them wisely, and present them in a respectful and adult way. i’ve always lived my life with the refusal to see colors, lines, boundaries, and limitations. so in doing that, part of me is way too busy trying to figure out what this crazy thing called life is to be drawn into the meaningless splitting of hairs carried out by the lucky majority not cursed by struggle and unrest.
so to me, whatever words are chosen, barring the neglect of the 1st amendment, are words hopefully true to who you are. so yeah, i use the word gay…and if doesn’t fit into the neat little, fair weather, tree hugger package you deem “politically correct,” so be it…because it was the meaning you should have paying attention to.
just my opinion,
I think the your valid point that the meaning very much matters when it comes to these things is slightly overshadowed by your admitting to using “gay” to mean “a dork, a dufus, silly” and so on. It’s certainly possible to use all those words you mentioned in either a good or bad way, and we have to know the meaning to get that before we start getting offended. But if it’s known you’re meaning it in a negative fashion, then that’s still bad, and we’re looking at the meaning to know that.
IOW, you know how offensive it is to use “gay”, “retarded”, etc. as derogatory terms, but you do it anyway. I’m not seeing where you’re “a cool dude” who ‘tries to do the right thing’.
We’ve had threads on this topic. There are people, even gay people, who are not offended by the “dork, dufus, silly” usage of “gay.” I, for one, find it totally offensive, because it’s so easy for people to equate it with the other meaning of “gay.” What would happen if we used terminology of other minorities that way?
I wonder if there are any gays that don’t like being lumped together with transsexuals and transgendereds.
I was a TA, a tutor and the staff adviser for the Gay/Straight Alliance at my high school alma mater earlier this year. When they said something like “That website is gay”, I asked them if they thought it would be appropriate to say “That website is for Ns” or “That website is chinky”.
That would assume that being transgendered is innately bad or wrong. I haven’t yet met a gay person who thought that way (except for the homophobes and closet cases, of course).
You’re an ex-marine, right? I know how proud you guys get. I guarantee if people started using “marine” as a euphemism for stupid and lame, marines would get pissed.
The reason you shouldn’t use “gay” to mean dork, dufus, etc, is because it never had that meaning. It means homosexual, and calling someone or something homosexual was clearly an insult.
No it wouldn’t.
It’s easy to imagine non-philosophical reasons why promoters of one cause would not want to get mixed up with another.
I don’t think there’s anything philosophical as seeing transgenderism as bad or wrong. I don’t think most homophobes who lump them in with us read a lot of Voltaire, anyway.
The thing is that their struggle is really very similar to ours. While there are significant gay populations everywhere and even more significant (if less politically aware) bisexual populations everywhere, the Ts don’t have enough numbers to stand up for themselves. They benefit from the inclusion and we see it as a generally positive thing to stand up for more of the oppressed. Anyone who’s ever had to memorize an acronym like LGBTQQIAA, or who has ever defended homosexuality only to have the topic changed to transgenderism (“I guess I don’t really have a problem with the gays, but those trannies are fucked up in the head”), understands that the LGBT community loves inclusiveness and the bigot community loves to lump us together.
ETA: I think I’m starting to see what you mean, actually. In the sense that we sometimes end up being further marginalized by association with something that even otherwise tolerant people have trouble understanding, yes, I suppose it can get tiring. But we’re all in the struggle together, hence why the LGBT community also tends to be active in other civil rights campaigns, like those for women, immigrants, etc. Not that it’s all flowers and candy in our midst, but that’s a topic for another day.
Hmmm. Maybe the problems you’re having with the word “gay” stems from the way words are limiting as well as expansive. Maybe you need to do as Prince did and dump a text name for a symbol. I know – pink triangle!
But how will you pronounce it? “The Queer Movement Formerly Known as Gay”?
At any time, any term used for *any *minority will have someone complaining that term is inappropriate and not PC.
African-American, Black, Negro, Colored, all have issues by someone, but are accepted by others. (Yes, I know Negro & Colored are currently out, but the UNCF and the NAACP still have not changed their names, regardless, at least afaik).
There’s no doubt some Homosexual person somewhere who doesn’t like “LBGT” (or for that matter- “homosexual” ) and has complained about it, like Key Lime Guy mentioned.
No, Hostile Dialect, no one thinks you are part of a “Borg hive-mind”, but us not in your “community” (which term is likely disliked somewhere by someone) like to be polite, but frankly we can’t be if no term is right for everyone. So, you telling us that "Pro-SSM, please" and "Same-sex marriage, please" and “LGBT rights movement” is telling us that we are doing something wrong, and that you *are *speaking for the entire “community”. But of course, since others here of that sexual persuasion (another term someone won’t like) disagree with you- you aren’t.
So sure, “Nigger” and other blatantly racist terms can be reported to the Mods, but otherwise, gently lead by example. Use what term you prefer in your posts and see if it catches on, otherwise no corrections, eh?
Please.
Tell it to the Marines. :rolleyes:
In some ways I do. I feel that the sexual orientation issue is separate from the gender identity issue. But I also see why we are mostly considered a common cause.