This has been on my mind for some time. I’ve read many a thread in which my gay brothers and sisters have voiced being offended by certain terms (e.g., ‘lifestyle’; or the word gay used to mean ‘lame’). I’ve also often read posters telling other posters that if someone tells you that a term is offensive, have the common courtesy not to use it. With that in mind, I would like it to be known that DrMatrix and I are very offended by the word ‘queer’ being used to describe homosexuals. It offends us in the same way that our brothers and sister of color would be offended by the use of the words ‘nigger’ or ‘spic’ . . . or the way our Jewish brothers and sisters would be offended by the word ‘kike.’
I know it’s prob’ly a generational thing . . . but please . . . show a little respect.
Interestingly, while I was at Uni (1992ish, UK) - “LesBiGay Soc” changed its name to “Queer Soc” and started holding “Queer Week” rather than LBG week. Their argument was that the term Queer could also incoprorate transgendered people, transexual people, people into alternative sexual lifestyles (BDSM?), cross-dressers and whatever else.
It left me wondering what was actually left to be “non-queer” (married man and wife, missionary position once a week only?!!)
Were you guys very offended by the use of queer in “Queer as Folk” TV show?
I grew up with “queer” being a derogatroy term, even though I’m possibly younger than you, but have noticed many attempts to “reclaim” it.
I’m very offended with “Jesus” and “Christ” being used in curses. But what can be done? Gaudere has said that He is fair game simply because He is a famous person. By what principle is “queer” verboten, other than offense? It is a quite famous word.
I think it’s great that a show like Queer as Folk exists . . . and I personally like the show (realizing that it shows a very limited aspect of gay culture). But, when I see the word queer being used to reference homosexuals in an open forum, it makes me very uncomfortable.
I understand your chagrin, Cajun, but for what I’ve seen it is becoming common.
This is going to sound like “I have a lot of gay friends,” but when I was living in San Franciso, in the Castro, with my bi-sexual wife, hanging out at the gay bars in the Castro (our neighborhood) with our predominantly gay friends, they referred to themselves as “queer” on the order of twice every five minutes.
Personally, this argument has come up before on the boards, so I generally refrain from throwing it around cavalierly, but if I find myself back in the Castro, I doubt I’ll be that self-concious about it.
The thing is, CajunMan, it’s that gay Dopers who most often use the word (which I also abhor). The younger gay folks use the word in a spirit of “in your face” defiance, coopting it in such a manner that I don’t think nowadays it’s strictly analogous to “nigger” and “kike”–that term, IMO, would be “fag”.
Queer, fag, nigger, kike . . . they’re all derogatory terms to me.
As I stated in my OP . . . it’s prob’ly a generational thing. Hearing/reading queer referencing homosexuals still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
As for reclaiming the word . . . nobody asked DrM and me.
I think it’s an “internal” thing. You will see Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor throwing around the “n” word, but God forbid a white comedian does it. I’ve also heard that gays use the “q” word in an attempt to “take it back.”
I guess if you’re a member of the particular group, you can use the insult without fear of retribution? Sort of like being in the in-crowd?
I’m sorry, I’m a straight white married mother, and I may not be explaining this very well. I guess what I’m trying to say is that while I never use those words, it seems to me if you are a member of that particular group you get away with using the word. Is that an attempt to desensitize the word, or more of an “We can say it but you can’t” type of thing?
Back in the 50s/ early 60s, we never had the word “gay” to use. Other than the Greco-Roman" homosexual" and “lesbian”,“queer” was the common word and derogatory only in the sense of the negative attitude of the speaker, if that was the case. To compare to “nigger”, we had the word “cocksucker”, which was very common in my time and used often indiscriminately. We also called people we didn’t like “buggers” or bug off, though I suspect few of us kids actually knew what it meant. Oh, and “fairies”, which was condescending from a macho point of view. “Fags” were cigarettes.
“Queer” and “gay” weren’t always derogatory terms for homesexuals. I remembers my grand parents using them in very different contexts. How the heck did that happen anyway?
I’m of the same demographic of ivylass and have wondered the same thing. I can tell you my family is from a rural area, and we’ll call each other hicks and crackers, but I’m less than amused if a city slicker does so.
I think you seriously mis-understand the situation. For this to be true a gay man would have to be a person who likes an occasional dramatic flair to things, but doesn’t spend his every waking hour using vivid verbs, simpering, singing show tunes (on key natch), cruising, primping and worried about being fresh and fabulous enough. For this fantasy of yours to be true gay men would sometimes just like to sit down and drink a cup of good coffee in peace and quiet and watch the leaves fall, or get the paper and maybe check out the bookstore or the new toys at Circuit City and live their lives without having to embrace every “taking back the word” fashion the kids come up with. You would want some smidgen of respect for your sensibilities as a mature person to whom words have historical weight and meaning, and are tired of having old, ugly words put on the end of sticks and waved around as banners of freedom by people that don’t appreciate how this affects people who had to spend a lifetime fighting these words. Since gay people are not human beings with memories and a sense of propriety about language, but walking, talking caricatures living in the moment this cannot be true.
You know, “Queer” has been “taken back” about twenty years now. It’s not exactly a new thing. And it was people much older than I am who made that decision.
I do think that it’s breaking down to a generational thing.
Around here, interestingly enough, we use queer as a catchphrase for pretty much everyone who isn’t het (and actually people who are). Like the resource room- it’s officially called the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, and Ally Recource Center. Some people call it the LGBTQA resource room, but a lot of people (I do think that college students being lazy has something to do with this) just call it the queer room. (We also call it the soup room, as in alphabet soup. Snerk.)
And then there was a point when we got into a debate about who and what we should name in the title, and the Expand-O version was something like lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, transsexual, queer, questioning, closeted, curious, intersex, and ally.
Which, by the time you finish saying that, the bloody meeting is over.
Some people like it because it’s so non-specific. If someone says that they’re queer it doesn’t pin 'em to the scale so much as indicate they’re not all the way over <makes nebulous gesture> on that side.
I see it as a shorthand that pretty much covers everything. And I do use it- I feel like we Legions Of Bent have a certain amount of history of reclaiming. That whole pink triangle thing and stuff. My caveat is that I try to use it only around people who aren’t bothered by it, although there have been plently of times when I’ve slipped.
When I lived in Montreal (and Matt can back me up on this or shoot me down), the gay community was frequently referred to as the queer community, both by members and in the press. It was a thoroughly “taken back” word there even ten years ago.
I think, Cajun, that this is one of those situations that calls for a bit of toughness on your part by recognizing that the word “queer” has, at worst, an ambiguous meaning depending on context, and perhaps to give users of that word the benefit of the doubt. As for those who use it obviously perjoratively, just remember that the gun they’re shooting has blanks in it.
Interesting side note: some kind of committee for Queer youth in Montreal was trying to come up with a French translation for “Queer” that would serve the same purpose (i.e. replace the alphabet soup). They came up with “allosexuel”. What do you think?
Me, I prefer “people” as the only fair and inclusive descriptive.
I’m with Lib and Ivylass: If some of my fellow human beings who are sexually attracted to the same sex choose to “reclaim” a generally-accepted-as-insult term and use it of themselves and each other, it’s no skin off my nose. But out of respect for them, I won’t use it until and unless I’m overtly invited to, for fear of sounding insulting to them.
'Smatter of fact, the one time I’ve ever used a derogatory term online was in an extremely unique, punning context, with reference to the attitudes of some conservative evangelical Christians towards gay (Lesbian, transgendered, etc.) people, and it was to quote St. Paul: “By their fruits shall you know them” – and my comment was that they not only did not produce “fruits,” they disavowed any responsibility towards them.
