Daniel,
One last question to put this right in my mind(ignoring the use of the word ‘neglect’)…
Is a dog owner(or animal owner in general), obligated to provide a safe environment for it?
Sam
jsgoddess:
To answer your question, based on my strict interpretation of the legal definition of “theft,” yes, you stole the wallet.
However, I ain’t a lawyer or a police officer.
In Buncombe County ordinance (the one I’m familiar with), the relevant section on neglect states the following:
The relevant section on stray animals is as follows:
Obviously two different concerns.
Daniel
If it makes any difference to you all, I have no problem with what I did being characterized as “theft.” Doesn’t bother me at all.
I didn’t ask about being a nuisance, but it’s good you provided that info too Daniel.
Doesn’t bother me at all either, Miller.
Sam
Miller, not that I think anything will come from this, but can I suggest you request this thread be closed? This could potentially be incriminating should matters come to a head in real life.
Provided it because, based on the information we have and on my experience in animal control, the only ordinances under which the dog owner could be prosecuted would be public nuisance ordinances, of which the one I cited is an example. The neglect ordinances wouldn’t apply here.
Daniel
You know, I do believe this is the longest thread I’ve ever started.
I should steal pets more often.
Interestingly enough, California appears to be a jurisdiction where MILLER is pretty clearly guilty of theft. The California Penal Code provides:
Cal. Penal Code Sec. 485. The only sticking point there, of course, is whether giving it to a shelter constitutes giving to “another person not entitled thereto,” but I think it does. The shelter has no right to the dog if it has an owner. (Unless the owner is found to be so neglectful the dog is removed from his care, which is precisely the determination MILLER never allowed them to make.) So, yes, he stole the dog.
“Neglect” and “negligence” are certainly related and, by lay people (those not in the legal profession), can reasonably be used interchangeably. In fact, “negligent” basically means “neglectful” – in conversations outside the law, that is. At law, “negligent” has a specific defenition and it does not mean the same as “neglectful.” “Negligent” means you have duty to do something, you fail to do it, and that failure damages someone. “Neglectful” means to fail to take care of (the same thing it means to lay people). But I prefer not to use the terms “negligent” or “negligence” unless its in the realm of the law, because our society is so familiar with legal terms that people who hear them often assume they’re being used in the legal context, even when they’re not. That, and the fact I’m a bit of a tight-ass bothered by imprecise language.
Anyway, using the legal definitions, the dog’s owner was probably neglectful, but he wasn’t negigent because his want of care didn’t cause any damage. The only damage he suffered – the loss of his dog – was due to MILLER’s actions, not his own. (He might well have eventually lost the dog due to his own negligence, if it ran off or was hit by a car, for example, but that’s not the situation here.) So if you’re using “negligent” in the legal sense, then, no, he wasn’t. If you’re using it in the non-legal sense you might want to stick with “neglectful,” since people who see “negligent” might think you mean negligent at law.
Apologies if someone already posted this, but when someone’s cat kept coming up to our house and spraying, I asked the shelter if it was okay to bring him in. They said yes, so we did. We did leave the tags on, but we bundled him up and took him to the shelter (and this was after I sent a warning letter to his owners with plenty of opportunity to shape up).
Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where what’s moral and ethical and what’s legal are somewhat at odds.
When you take an animal into your care, you are morally and ethically required to make sure it has a safe environment and is as comfortable as you can reasonably make it. Legally, though, as long as the creature has enough food and water to keep body and soul together, some semblance of shelter, and treatment for devastating diseases (or euthanasia), you’re in the clear.
We’ve called animal control about patients before and always gotten the same story: The dog has food and water, a little shelter, and they took it to the vet (even though they declined treatment), so there’s not much we can legally do. Sure, he’s malnourished, and he’s been shitting blood for three weeks, and he’s got untreated heartworms and no vaccines, and he’s afraid of the owners, and he sits outside tied to a tree all day every day. But they’re within the limits of the law.
It’s a shit-tastic situation for everyone involved, and the animal control people don’t like it any better than we do.
In this situation, removing the tags may have been illegal, but I don’t count it as immoral, or even unethical. These people are letting their dog run loose, violating the law and putting the animal in danger. Miller took steps that, for the moment at least, kept the animal from getting run over, attacked by other animals, poisoned, or shot. (And if you think things like deliberate poisonings and shootings only happen in the country, you’re sadly mistaken.)
He didn’t make it impossible for the owners to ever find their dog again. He just tried to make it a little more trouble for them. Tags or no tags, all they had to do was grab the phone book and start calling around. Heck, with any luck, that would be more trouble than they’re willing to go to, and the dog will get new, more responsible owners who don’t let him endanger himself.
Yes, some animals are “escape artists.” It’s no excuse, though. Hell, I had an escape artist pony when I was a kid. There was nothing in pasture that would hurt him, or in most of the barn, but there was the problem of the corn crib and the possibility of him foundering himself. We had to keep the crib door padlocked, and Dad had to wire his stall door shut with a constantly shifting pattern to keep him in. (He’d figure the wires out if you left them the same for more than a few days.) Any animal can be contained, if you try hard enough.
Dolly the Vicious Attack Hound chewed through a tie-out, slipped out of a regular collar, and sawed through a martingale collar to go roaming the neighborhood. So I got her a steel correction collar to go with her steel tie-out. She couldn’t slip the collar, couldn’t saw or chew through the steel, and so she was safe. Any animal can be contained, if you try hard enough.
If all else fails, you build a dog run, with chain-link flooring under the dirt, and a lid. They can’t bust through, they can’t dig under, and they can’t climb over. Any animal can be contained if you try hard enough.
Nah. The correct phrase is: “Liberating from the great bipedal oppressor.”
Without the tags, Miller made it more difficult for the shelter to investigate a possible negligence case on the owners.
Since there was no intention of personally keeping the animalMiller would not be guilty of theft here in the UK, but would be open to a charge of TWOC (Taking without owners consent)
The removal of the tags is the crucial factor, if those had remained in place then it would have been impossible to determine if this was TWOC, or honest animal welfare, and the charge would have fallen.
This charge is more usually brought before joyriders who also have no intention of keeping the vehicle they have ‘borrowed’ but it can be applied to this case.
I would expect a US version of such a charge.
For what it’s worth I think Miller did right.
Everybody is forgetting that :
The owners could look up the pet even without the tags. All They had to do was call the local kennels asking for dogs of this or that description.
The kennel could have the tags back if they felt they needed it. Miller gave them an option: “If you agree with me don’t call me, if you disagree call me and I’ll give the tags back.”
Hi…
Haven’t finished the thread but have to put in my two cents.
I own several Border Collies- one of them, my first Border Collie Leary, is not only an escape artist- but has always been extremely driven to wander. Her mother was the same way.
Leary has three tags and a microchip on her precisely because she is an escape artist. She doesn’t even have to try- she simply jumps any fence I have had- including a wall over 8 feet high. She is now 9 years old, and still can climb anything. Yes, she is watched as vigilantly as possible- but she definitely has escaped at least three times in the last month. One of my neighbors has found her for me more than once- the phone call waiting for me when I return from looking for her. Only once have I missed her totally- about a month ago the swamp cooler blew open a door in my house. I was in another room and I didn’t realize it was open. I looked outside, and one of my other dogs was in the yard. I called her in and thought nothing more of it until I got a call from animal control 20 min. later. They had picked up Leary, who had snuck out. Luckily she was wearing her tags, luckily the animal control lady was very understanding- especially after she saw how my yard- she was very surprised any dog could get out of it.
I do everything I can to keep Leary from running off- it takes alot of work- she can’t go outside without me- ever. Most of the time she jumps out , I’m in the yard with her and have turned my back for a second. If she’s been gone for more than a minute, she’s really gone- I’ve got to get the truck and go find her.
I don’t think you can assume the dog in question here is any different from my dog. Yes, he may get out alot- he also may be very good at it. I built a dog kennel with a roof for Leary, she still found every hole it in- it took a month to modify it so it was dog proof. One night, she not only got out of her kennel, but she jumped the 8 foot block wall in our yard and “broke in” to the neighbors house through their poodles dog door. They were not happy about it, and I was very sorry- but also very grateful that they called animal control and kept her tags on. I didn’t have to pay a fine because I knew the A/C lady (not through my dog LOL) but I would have gladly to have my dog back.
Those people took the trouble to tag their dog, I think the best way for them to learn to pay more attention to their dog would have been a fine for a stray dog. But every pet situation is different, just because a dog gets out doesn’t mean that effort isn’t being made to care for them. Also, unneutered large breed male dogs can tend to run thinner. As an owner of a lean breed- I hear all the time about how I’m starving my dogs- but they eat almost twice the reccommended food for their weight (except Leary who is spayed and fat but can still get over the fence). I think its very arrogant and self righteous to take away this pet from its owner- not just for the people but for the dog. If someone did that to my dog, she would be heartbroken- as much as she likes to wander- she still always comes running when I find her. I would be heartbroken too- I do everything I can to keep her in, but she is very successful at escaping.
Right now I have a rescue dog here that no one cared enough to tag- she’s very depressed after being lost and nearly losing her life (she was found in the middle of ranch country in Nevada summer temperatures). She has had a hard life- she has a shattered hip bone that was never treated, so she will limp the rest of her life. Yet you can still tell she misses her owners I wouldn’t let them have her back right away- but if she had tags I would have thought at least to let them know where she was and to listen to their story on why she was in the state she was in and where she was found- before taking away any chance that they were actually decent people (maybe she had a previous home that neglected her) and wanted their dog back.
Humorously enough, just as you could not be bothered to read the entire thread, I could not be bothered to read your entire post. In fact, I stopped as soon as I finished the portion quoted above.
Next time, save your two cents until you’ve finished the entire thread and have an outside chance of actually knowing what you’re talking about.
Hi,
Nice to meet you too. Obviously you did read my post, or else you might not be so cranky ;).
I have now read the rest of the thread- and glad to see that the owners did care enough to have the dog chipped. Thank God for that invention- and that the dogs owners cared enough to bail him out.
I work for a vet, I see how many dogs don’t stay in their original home. Glad to see these people didn’t take the easy way out and leave their dog at the shelter. Quite a few people would have.
Guess they weren’t neglectful after all, but what you did by removing the tags could have caused far more harm than good IMHO. Turning the dog into the humane society was the right choice- intentionally hiding his identity cancels that right out.
Actually, I didn’t read your post, just like I said. Don’t offer your opinion without reading the entire thread. Doing otherwise is disrespectful to all the other people who have gone to the effort of contributing to the discussion.
Going back to your post now, I’d say the difference between not being willing to take care of your pet and not being able to take care of your pet is too fine a distinction for me to make. If your dog is escaping three times a month, you’re clearly not capable of providing the level of care the dog requires.
Going back to your post now, I’d say the difference between not being willing to take care of your pet and not being able to take care of your pet is too fine a distinction for me to make. If your dog is escaping three times a month, you’re clearly not capable of providing the level of care the dog requires.>>
Self righteous even on a message board. I will post when I please- whether I finished the thread or not before I posted has nothing to do with the actual content of my post- which should be what counts. I’ve been on quite a few message boards and usually the first sign that someone is uncertain about their position is when they ignore the content and start attacking the poster for its method of posting, spelling, grammar or any other number of trivial things.
Obviously, you are pretty good at assumptions. The level of care I provide for all of my dogs, and the dogs I rescue is excellent. Even though my dog has escaped 3 times in the last month- she has always been found within five minutes- except for the time the door blew open without my knowledge- in that case it was twenty minutes before I got the call from the nice animal control.
My breed is known for being escape artists, but despite owning more than 6 of them in the last 9 years, she is the only one who manages to escape out of my yard. She has a second home with a friend of mine, who has also lost her over an extremely high wall several times- and has also paid the attention to her being gone and found her immediately. She is never left unattended in the yard, as I said, she waits until you aren’t looking. I have a big yard and three other dogs- sometimes I’m not looking right at her and she knows it. Most of the time when she jumps out, I catch her because I hear it right away. I have taken every precaution to insure she is returned to me is she does get really lost- I can only hope she is found by more compassionate person than you’ve shown. I managed to keep this dog alive and healthy and NEVER actually “lost” for more than 9 years. Maybe you should hang out at a shelter or vet clinic and see what an exception that can be- especially in my area- at least half of the pups we see are “given away” or “lost” or “hit by car” before they hit two years old.
Miller You did good IMO just a question. Aren’t there any leash laws in effect in your city? Or is it ok for dog owners to open the door and let the animal run free to do its business anywhere and for ever how long it wants to until it decides to mosey on home?