No, I’m not. See that’s why you need all this special attention. That’s why, even if I explained it yet a third time, you still wouldn’t get it. You just plain don’t listen.
But for the benefit of anyone interested enough to read it, here is my position on the matter:
There should be no rule against so-called hate-speech. For one thing, it is impossible to define objectively. For another, it only encourages the use of euphemisms. And third, it creates an issue where one might not otherwise exist (like here, for example). That said, IF there is to be a rule against it, and IF it is to be defined as pejorative, THEN ban all words that are intended as pejoratives.
Oh, and if it’s up for a vote at some point, I cast my vote for “fundie” as harmless insult, as I’d like to continue to use it to describe a certain acquaintance of mine without being accused of using hate speech.
And on top of that, it really isn’t even factually inaccurate since I knew (and Desmostylus knew as well) that Kaylasdad, with whom I’ve had interactions for several years in threads on theism and atheism, was talking about references to hard atheists, not violent feminists. The plain fact is that Desmostylus is obsessed with me, and everyone knows it, from ordinary members to moderators. He pops into threads where I post for no purpose other than to attack me. He has derailed whole threads in the past, and is attempting to do so now, in order to feed his psychotic addiction. He received a final warning about his aggressive behavior from TVeblen in July when he called me a troll. But he lacks the self-control to stop.
And here I was, thinking you were complaining about the fact that Liberal had used “handstabber” (or “hand stabber”) at some later point, after he said he had last used it.
But lemme get this straight…Because Liberal said he “was willing to accept the prohibition of ‘hand stabber’ right along with ‘fundie’” and continued to use it, that makes him a liar?
I think Liberal has made clear his stance on the issue and that the statement referenced above is equivalent to “Well, if yer gonna ban ‘fundie,’ yer gonna hafta ban ‘hand stabber’ as well.” More of a hypothetical than anything else. Then again, that’s just my interpretation. Lib, if I’m putting the wrong words in your mouth, just whack me with a stick or something.
I agree with your basic point, except that I do ban racist and what I consider hate speech in my own online community. However, context is everything and I do not have a blanket list of “words” that I consider to be hate speech. I ban people when I think they are behaving like assholes.
Would you say that “all words intended as pejoratives” included the ones you used like feminazi?
Fair enough. And thanks for acknowledging that you understand my point.
Yes. If hate-speech is to be defined as the use of pejorative terms, then pejorative terms are hate-speech. Let me put it another way: how many direct references to “fundie” (other than clinical discussions like this) can you find just on this board that are NOT pejoratives? It isn’t used as a handy abbreviation. It is used in the same way as homo. (That’s one of the arguments I made above.)
I wouldn’t know. For the most part I stay out of GD, which is where I imagine it gets used mostly, because I find GD rather boring. Watching people get angry and fling insults is much more interesting reading.
Actually, it gets used in the Pit quite a lot. I haven’t complied any statistics on it either, but I’d be willing to wager $10 against $1 that when it’s used, it’s used in the context I described more than 90% of the time.
Ah, well… que sera, sera. I must not notice it. For the most part I just skim thread titles while I’m uploading big files or waiting for something to download anyway, I usually don’t even open a thread unless I think I might reply to it.
And I’m not wagering you any $$ 'cause I gotta buy groceries this week.
Certainly there are varying degrees of hate. On the one hand there is the very real fear of violence experienced by the OP, and on the other hand there is the inexpressable feeling that you will not be accepted by “the group” because of your ethnicity or religion. Our hate laws in Canada and elsewhere do not make a distinction based on the degree of potential violence. I should add also that I’ve noticed countless number of times where a poster has been charged with being hateful just for his/her beliefs regarding the merits of gay marriage for example. Its on that basis that I believe **Liberal ** is operating on.
Do not think that fundies are not subject to violence for their religion. I’m very sure that in many areas of Canada and the US that the school playground has been the site for violence directed at kids who are different from the general population for a variety of reasons.
I myself have gone through a period in my life where I was hated because I was a Dutch immigrant. I had to run and hide for a decade from gangs of older youths shouting taunts of Dutchie, Dutchie, while I walked to a school on the other side of a United Empire Loyalist town in Ontario. Seven blocks east and seven blocks south. I had to look down each street to make sure it was safe and decide which path to take. History will never record that period of hate in the 50’s for a young Dutch immigrant.
For God’s sake, give it a rest already, Desmo. Lord knows I’m no fan of Liberal’s, but your obsession with him is sad and pathetic, and entirely counterproductive. Everytime you jump on him with one of your bizarre and insupportable accusations, you actually make him look better. Please, just stop already.
No, he’s not a fundie. Not all Christians are fundies. And likewise, not all fundies are Christian.. I think a lot of people forget that. You can have fundie Muslims, fundie Jews, fundie pagans, even fundie atheists, in some odd cases.
Most people use the word “fundie” to denote religious zealots who think that anyone who doesn’t believe the exact same way THEY do are scum and that everyone should be FORCED to do things their way-regardless of beliefs.
Fundie means someone who uses their beliefs to be a jerk. Period. It doesn’t mean “Christian”, or any other religion. It is a TYPE of person. Whereas most hate speech like nigger, kike, raghead or faggot simply means someone who is black, Jewish, Middle-Eastern/Muslim, or gay. Not someone who DID anything-but an entire group of people.
By that logic, Liberal, then violent and hateful CHRISTIANS are fair game.
Oops, missed that comment. Again, I agree on the whole. But an awful lot of people use it to describe people whose hearfelt beliefs they just don’t like or find offensive.
Okay, Desmo and Lib, you two fighters are to retreat to your respective corners. This routine has gotten very old.
Desmo, it’s quite obvious Lib drives you crazy. Either ignore him altogether or pick your battles with him more judiciously.
Lib, you’ve been informed–and re-informed–in numerous Pit threads exactly how and why your behavior annoys people. It isn’t amusing, enlightening or dismissable as just an idiocyncracy with you.
I don’t think it’s particularly fair to include Liberal in that warning. I don’t see where he’s done anything objectionable in this thread, except for defend himself from a lunatic.
And I’ve explained why you’re wrong. You haven’t adequately responded. Words we consider to be “hate speech” have a much stronger effect than “fundie” or even your favorite word (which I found in posts from September of last year in user searches.) Maybe fundie is an insult (though why it is, you still haven’t deigned to explain.) But for you to bring up violence in India or Indonesia is irrelevant because you haven’t had violence done against you for being Christian. Like virtually every gay person in this country (who’s not completely closeted), I’ve experienced words like “faggot” as a prelude to violence. It creates a moment of abject terror in me when I hear it (and it’s not easy to write about these things.) Unless you can explain why “fundie” does the same thing to you, then I don’t see how you can consider them equivalent.
Furthermore, are you willing to do more than stop saying “hand-stabber”? I think an apology might be in order, if you wish to see others stop using the word “fundie”. After all, “fundie” makes no accusations of violence.
No one here said those were hate speech. They were brought up as approximate equivalents to “fundie”. (Though “terrorist” and “hand-stabber” imply that your opposition is violent, and “feminazi” makes a rather unfair comparison to perhaps the worst group of human beings who ever lived.) It’s you who’s been drawing an analogy between “faggot” and “fundie”, and like I’ve shown above, that’s unjustifiable.
But like I’ve demonstrated, the true words of hatred have a power independent of the denotative meaning because of the context in which people have heard them. No euphemism has the power of “faggot”. I don’t think any euphemism matches “nigger” either.
So your view is predicated on the idea that “hate speech” and “pejorative” are equivalents, no? Doesn’t my OP explain why “faggot” has a power far stronger than as a mere pejorative? No one is calling for pejoratives to be banned. There is a rule (that I’m not taking a position on) restricting hate speech. I don’t think you really understand what hate speech means if you think “fundie” counts in the same way as “faggot”.
This is the point I’ve been trying to make. “Pejoratives” are not outlawed here, in the interest of restricting speech as little as powerful. Hate speech is not the same as insulting speech; pejoratives are not necessarily hate speech. And “fundie” and “faggot” just are not equivalent.
Is there any evidence that fundamentalist Christians are targetted with violence for being fundamentalist Christians? Not hypothetical like here or in Starving Artist’s posts. I mean actual evidence. I ask because I’ve never heard of that happening. We had plenty of strongly Christian kids at my elementary school, though I didn’t then know enough to know whether they were fundamentalists or not. They were not the targets of violence because of it. (Though I suffered a certain amount of harassment through elementary school for saying I didn’t believe in God.)
Actually, it gets used in the Pit quite a lot. I haven’t complied any statistics on it either, but I’d be willing to wager $10 against $1 that when it’s used, it’s used in the context I described more than 90% of the time.