I have the utmost respect for the UU tradition (did you know the Unitarian tradition shared roots with the Congregationalist side of the United Church of Christ?) – but I think Polycarp and Bigred1 have identified the major problem.
These days there are many secular organizations committed to social justice, so if my particular passion lies in minority rights, women’s rights, antipoverty or any of the other causes the UU has been out in front of, it’s easy for me to find one of them.
On the other hand, if I’m looking for spiritual comfort, I’ll probably be a little more comfortable knowing that the person next to me feels the way I do about the existance of heaven and hell, the divinity of Jesus, the concept of original sin and other theological points.
Combine that with the UU tradition that each church fashions its worship in its own way, so I could conceivably wind up with a good old-fashioned hymnal at one church and rock music at another, and you begin to see where recruitment problems can develop.
Ah, but you’re missing the point. It’s not like one week the minister gets up and says, “OK, anyone who hasn’t accepted Jesus as their savior is going to Hell,” and then the next week gets up and says, “OK, anyone who hasn’t accepted Allah as God is a heretic and must be punished,” ad nauseum. We’re about discussion, education, acceptance and growth, not debating who is right and who is wrong - if that were the case, we would all have to go to separate churches.
But, more precisely, to answer your question, I’ll give you a sampling of the Unitarian Fellowship of West Chester’s sermon run-down over the next couple of weeks:
“Is Satan Gone?” (Satan in modern American Christianity)
“Homophobia: What is it? Where is it?”
“I’m Gonna Let It Shine” (about the meaning of the hymn of the same name)
“Moving Through The World As A Caring Person”
“Lift Every Voice And Sing” (music program)
“We Shall Overcome” (UU history and the racial justice movement)
So mostly we talk about topics that are common to our humanistic leanings with leanings towards our spiritual development.
Does this help?
Once again, I UUs are inclusive without being wishy-washy, and yet our numbers are low. I’m still thinking it’s a PR problem…
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
Yech, how boring. Maybe this does explain why we’re so small in numbers - sheep tend to flock together, whereas most UUs I know tend to be independent, free-thinkers who are comfortable enough with their personal theologies that discussing their differences with someone who holds an opposing point of view doesn’t make them feel challenged.
Well, see, I see this as another selling point - go to one church, and if their style doesn’t suit you, there’s usually another within driving distance. I could easily attend about 4 or 5 different congregations of me all within a half hour, and all have very different “feels” from each other. But at the same time, I see your point - it might be a bit too nouveau for some people who aren’t sure about what they’re searching for.
Baaa.
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
The UU church here in Oxford, Mississippi serves the much needed function of providing a spiritual community for those “left-out” in this not very diverse town. There are large Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian structures, and a small Catholic church, but the UUs meet in the Student Union at the University.
The congregation is welcoming to all, and asks people of differing faiths to come share in discussion groups. The members are some of the most open-minded people in this town, and I’m glad such an alternative exists. This is a town where to be a Pagan, or Buddhist in my case, labels you as suspect. Ridiculously, on the level of Black Magic. I’m glad that a Christian church of this order exists here, because it serves as a mediator in the understanding between the more established religions and less travelled (here at least) spiritual paths.
As to why people choose to flock to established religions, the easy answer would be to say it’s easier. But perhaps being a member of such a strong organization becomes part of the basic fiber of a person, and provides the ground from which to flower. My nature is to question things, and I enjoy exploring the multiplicity, and common bonds of different faiths. This hasn’t diluted my own faith, rather, it fills me with delight to see how diverse spiritual expression can be. But any faith can be fertile ground in which the spirit can flourish. I respect those who take heart in any Church.
Esprix, as I’ve said before, I have the greatest respect for the UU and its members. Therefore, I’m disappointed in your continuing references to those who embrace a more conservative church as “sheep” and your parting line of “Baaa.”
I thought one of the precepts of your church was to embrace a variety of belief systems and manifestations of faith.
Ok… something elelle said brought up another question:
Can I go out on a limb here and say that the UU church is NOT a Christian church? Ok… that’s a question and not a statement. I kind of get the impression that, since most Christian based churches kind of have it set that you need to believe in Christ and that He died for your sins, etc. that this would not be a part of the UU church.
Am I off track here?
Beth
Esprix… I still have more questions… just trying to form them into coherent sentences before I post What a novel concept… I know!
Esprix… I guess I would be interested in hearing the body of a sermon… how it is presented. By the topics you listed as sermons, they sound similar (in some cases) to what I hear at church. But I am going to make an educated guess and say that the content of the sermons is QUITE different. I will state that most of the sermons I listen to do go for the “hate the sin, not the sinner” ilk. So… would that be considered close-minded to exclusivist to the UU church?
I had to chuckle at this one. I know exactly what you are talking about… and yet I try not to just hang out with those who believe the same exact thing I do all the time. I find that someone who has an opposing view can really challenge my thinking… and make me stronger in my beliefs. It’s a good thing too. My hubby does not believe the same that I do, and boy does he challenge me sometimes!!!
A quote widely attributed to John D. Rockefeller: “If two men agree on everything, one of them is unnecessary.”
Well, I feel the same way about wishy washy liberal religions like Unitarianism. If, as the Unitarians say, God likes me just the way I am, there’s no such thing as objective morality, and I’m utterly free to believe and/or do ANYTHING I want… then what the hell do I need THEM for???
DO you see now why the Unitarians attract no followers? If I’m inclined to “do my own thing,” I can do it all by myself! If I’m inclined to believe in anything/nothing… well, I can believe in nothing all by myself! A religion that tells me that everything I say/do/believe is hunky-dory is absolutely useless to me!
My feeling is, any religion worth its salt should disturb us at least occasionally. The purpose of religion should be to make us better people, which means that any decent clergyman is going to have to tell us to stop doing bad things that we like doing, or to start doing good things that we don’t want to do.
A religion that doesn’t challenge me, that only tells me how great I am, doesn’t make me a better person. So who needs it?
But hey, what do I know? I’m just a hypocritical, conservative Catholic sheep (baa!). I’ll leave it to Esprix to answer this: tell us, Esprix, when has the Unitarian Church ever challenged you? When has it ever told you anything you didn’t want to hear? And if the answer is “never”, then how is it courageous… and above all, how does it show “independent thought” to go to a church that never challenges you, and never tells you anything you don’t want to hear?
> As far as kids leaving, there are way
> more converts to UUism than from, but
> yes, some people do find other spiritual
> paths; in a way, though, that’s what UUism
> is all about.
(Note, I will say “Unitarianism”, rather than UUism. I hate cute abbreviations.)
Esprix, I don’t think you understood my question at all. If it were really true that there are many more converts to Unitarianism than there are converts away from Unitarianism, then Unitarianism should be growing extremely fast. Clearly that’s not true. What is the number of Unitarians in the U.S. now as opposed to ten years ago, or twenty years ago, or thirty years ago?
You’re not counting all the converts away from Unitarianism. If a denomination had no one ever convert to it or away from it and all the families in it had about as many children as the average American family, then it would be just as stable in number of members as the American population overall. (At the moment, that means it wouldn’t be changing in size at all, since ignoring immigration the population of the U.S. is approximately stable.) If a denomination is growing, it must be getting more converts to it than converts away from it. If a denomination is shrinking, it must be losing more converts than it gains.
Given that (as far as I can tell) the number of Unitarians in the U.S. is either stable or at most slowly growing, it’s blatantly mathematically impossible for there to be many more converts away from it than converts to it. I think that you’re failing to count children of Unitarians who quit going to church as converts away from it. This is, incidentally, the sort of statistic that’s kept by most denomination. They know not only how many adult converts to and from their church there are, but also what proportion of children of their members remain in their church.
This is what I meant in asking if Unitarianism is a one-generation faith. I wasn’t asking for the length of time that the church has existed. I know some of the history of Unitarianism. (Incidentally, I thought your original post was a little disconcerting. It sounds as if you think that Unitarianism is a weird, exotic faith that no one here could ever possibly have heard of. In fact, I suspect that most reasonably intelligent, reasonably well-read Americans have heard of Unitarianism and know a little bit about its doctrines.) What I wanted to know is if Unitarianism tends to be a single generation in the history of a family. Do people tend to convert to Unitarianism, but their children convert away from it (and not going to any church at all does count as converting away from it), or do families tend to stay in Unitarianism for many generations?
{sigh} Yes, you’re right - my apologies. In my zeal (Eek! I’m a zealot!) for UUism and diversity I sometimes rail against the mainstream, and I have a particular problem with Christianity as a social institution and, to a lesser extent, a belief system. However, there are certainly devout Christians whom I admire and respect, and certainly parts of Christianity that seem worthwhile and constructive. Still, Christianity leaves me feeling very, very unsatisfied.
I’ll refrain from being mean, but, as mentioned before, it’s easier to be, say, Catholic, because there’s a list of things to believe in that tell you you’re Catholic - you don’t really have to think for yourself, it’s all spelled out for you. UUism is more challenging. Is this why we’re not as popular, because it’s harder?
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
Actually, it kind of depends on which UU congregation you attend, which in turn is influenced by its members. The congregation where I was choir director was decidedly not majority Christian; in fact, I had an alto that refused to sing the one and only Christian-oriented piece I picked that year, for Easter.
We have a Judeo-Christian history, and many people come to us from Jewish or Christian upbringings, and I think technically we’re considered Protestant (but then, anyone who is not RC is considered that, including the Quakers), but as a church, we are defined by the beliefs of our members, some of whom (and I have no idea what kind of percentages we’re talking about here) identify themselves as Christian. But is the church telling us to believe in the divinity of Christ? Or not to? No, to both counts.
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
Sure, presentation has a lot to do with it. Again, we definitely have a humanistic bent - social justice is one of our big causes - so instead of relating, say, the “Moving Through The World As A Caring Person” sermon strictly to a Christian viewpoint (“care like Christ cared”), perhaps they’ll discuss things the UU denomination is doing to care, what different religions and historical figures did to care, why we should care, etc.
As far as love the sinner, hate the sin… read on. I’m going to address that in another post.
(In my original post I said, “… most UUs I know tend to be independent, free-thinkers who are comfortable enough with their personal theologies that discussing their differences with someone who holds an opposing point of view doesn’t make them feel challenged” when I meant to say feel “threatened” - challenge is a good thing!)
Well, bully for you! People who do not allow themselves access to opposing points of view are relegating themselves to a life of stagnation. No, you shouldn’t go out and pick a fight every day, but still, sitting in the same church with the same people believing the same doctrines and hearing the same theology over and over again… blah. Change is good, even if its just a refreshing breeze once in a while.
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
Now, let’s see if we can agree on a common ground here. I think the value of a religion
is the support and strength someone derives from it to become a better person. In religious talk, “to become more Godly.”
To some people, a religious system with defined guideposts is the best way for them to reach their goals. For others, the best way is almost like a Socratic dialogue, where a spiritual adviser asks questions, challenges beliefs, but lets one find his/her own way.
Still others, while they may not accept the existence of a higher power, believe that the actions of an individual have an effect on others, and resolve to live their lives in a way that benefits society.
As I said, I was a member of the United Church of Christ for many years (think UU except that acknowledgement of Jesus is an article of faith). Ultimately, although I agreed with their social gospel, I did not feel that I was challenged personally to better myself as an individual. Eventually I found a church I am more comfortable in.
But that’s just me. If you, I, and the atheist around the corner have each found institutions that encourage us to become better people and help us achieve that goal, shouldn’t we all congratulate each other instead of getting into big arguments about which way is better?
Then I guess the Pope won’t have many friends left…
Another common misconception. UUism, like any other religion, more than teaching a moral code, provides a moral compass. Do you really believe we’d go out there and say, “Hey, Hitler, you do what you think is right, and we won’t interfere, although we respectfully disagree?” There may be little differences in the specifics (i.e., Catholics say homosexuality is bad, whereas we ordain openly gay ministers and bless same-sex unions, hence giving us that label of ‘liberal’), but that is what differentiates all religions. Clearly there are good things and bad things in the world, and we teach good things.
More importantly, though, is how each individual comes to realize those good things in the world - some through Christ, some through Buddah, some through science, some through Nature. Others may disagree, but we see it as all boiling down to the same thing, the same reality, the same community of man, the same inherent dignity and worth of every person.
How sad, then. UU’s come together to learn about each other, about different faiths, about different kinds of people in the world, and in turn become better people because of it. The constant challenge of looking at new things, and in turn looking at yourself, promotes growth, understanding and spiritual awareness. It’s not about “do your own thing,” it’s about learning from each others differences.
As Unitarian Universalists, we are constantly called upon to examine the world around us, the people in it, and ourselves. Our clergy prompts us to care about our community. Our social action committees challenge us to give where help is needed, be it down the street or in a third world country. Our members cry out for better understanding of the things that are not easily understood in mankind. Yeah, who needs it? :rolleyes:
Apologies. There are many good things to be said about people of the Catholic faith.
You know, my mother said the same thing to me - “you only go to that church because they tell you what you want to hear.”
Well, duh.
The church I grew up in said, “You are bad because you are different.” Gee, makes me want to sign right up! When I found UUism, they said, “Yeah, you’re different - that’s a good thing. Tell us about it…” Pick one, eh?
When has UUism challenged me? Every time I sit down to a sermon about a topic I don’t know anything about, or don’t think of as “my issues,” or didn’t care much about beforehand (i.e., third world development, or pollution, or Native American discrimination, etc.) When has it told me what I didn’t want to hear? When my minister stood up and told our whole congregation, “You are not doing enough in the world - you are selfish, uncaring and stunted. Grow up.”
The difference, I think, is that the “rules” for being UU aren’t posted on the wall - they’re posted in each person’s heart. And trust me, self-imposed guilt is much more effective than church-imposed guilt, although it is harder to achieve, to be sure…
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
Larger, but you raise an interesting point - I’ll have to get some numbers to ponder. I understood that we were growing more than ever (at least in the late 80’s/early 90’s), but we’re still at the next-to-last place on the denomination scale (I think RC’s have the most members, followed by Methodists, Baptists, and the rest of the mainstream Protestants, then us, then like Quakers, but I don’t know if this is world-wide or US, and I cannot confirm this - I’ll do a little research).
Well, if I get the numbers, like any other denomination, it’ll be people who are currently card-carrying, dues-paying members, so yes, if people leave, they’re not counted.
When I say “many converts to UUism,” I mean that the vast majority of UUs I know came from another religious upbringing, and the minority were raised UU.
Ah, ok - yes, I did misunderstand. I’ll see what I can dig up.
Hmmm, I’m not so sure about that, but perhaps you’re right. I guess I’ve been asked, “Don’t you worship trees?” or “Isn’t that that Sun Yun Moon church?” or “Sounds like a cult to me” once too often. :rolleyes: Either that, or the congregation(s) I attended were very small in their communities and no one really knew what they were all about.
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
I’ll agree to that common ground - whatever establishment, vehicle or philosophy that makes you a better person should be used (as I said before, I really believe that society needs more spiritual grounding, no matter what the source). And no, no one organization is better than another - every person is different, and so a myriad of different groups are needed to meet peoples’ needs.
So, ok, you’re in a church, you’re happy, you have religion, you’re growing, yadda yadda yadda. Or maybe you’re not affiliated with a church, but you’re still evolving nicely, yadda yadda yadda. All is good.
So, my question is, what about those people who are without an established faith and are not growing spiritually? My experience has been that the vast majority of those people would fit nicely into UUism. So why haven’t they? (A more clarified version of my OP.)
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
“So, my question is, what about those people who are without an established faith and are not growing spiritually? My experience has been that the vast majority of those people would fit nicely into UUism. So why haven’t they? (A more clarified version of my OP.)”
Ahh, the golden question in religious circles “What about the unchurched and why can’t we get more of them to visit us?”
I’ll take a couple of guesses.
1-- By the time we’re adults, most of us have been exposed to one or more religious traditions. Some of us continue in the faith we have been raised, while others go through a search phase where they find the church and particular congregation they’re most comfortable with. But I’ll wager a lot of people who had bad experiences simply write off organized religion completely.
2-- Someone who’s “not growing spiritually” may not be aware of it, or feel that things are just fine the way they are. If at some point, a person has a life crisis, he/she may turn to a secular organization or support group, rather than a church which could provide the same type of support.
3-- Kind of related, they may have visited a church and been turned off by the experience. When my wife and I were shopping for a church we visited one where we were greeted so enthusiastically and pursued so vigorously that we felt like we were being stalked. At another church my wife, by nature a shy person, went up to the greeter, introduced herself, and was virtually ignored.
4-- Some people feel like they must search for spiritual fulfillment on their own. They read, they meditate, but they simply don’t go for organized groups. That’s a shame, they often have well-developed theologies and are great in a one-on-one discussion of faith and ethics, but for whatever reasons, they just won’t go near a church.
5-- They aren’t into Western religions. UU may not be Christian, but like you said, your church has the trappings of a European-based denomination. There’s a percentage of people out there who are going to be more comfortable with the externals of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, B’hai or whatever, regardless of whether they agree with those teachings 100%.
Another factor that needs to be taken into account is that it is more acceptable now to not belong to a church than it was a few generations ago. I can only speak for my own UU church, but a number of the older members are humanists who became UUs (actually Unitarians at the time) because they couldn’t or wouldn’t pledge allegiance to a God they didn’t believe in. Nowadays, such people may just not join a church. Even if they were raised UUs, they may choose not to join any church.
Actually, Wendell, UUism is short for “Unitarian Universalism” which is a bit cumbersome to type. “UUism” is a fairly standard abbreviation for it.
Never attribute to malice anything that can be attributed to stupidity.
– Unknown
> In fact, I suspect that most reasonably
> intelligent, reasonably well-read
> Americans have heard of Unitarianism and
> know a little bit about its doctrines.
Esprix says:
> Hmmm, I’m not so sure about that, but
> perhaps you’re right. I guess I’ve
> asked, “Don’t you worship trees?”
> or “Isn’t that that Sun Yun Moon church?”
> or “Sounds like a cult to me” once too
> often.
I would contend that these are merely stupid people. Some people don’t know what the people in the Protestant or Catholic church down the block believe. Some don’t know what their own church believes.
On the other hand, I think that a reasonable intelligent, reasonably well-read American is more likely to know a Unitarian than to know a fundamentalist Christian. This proves absolutely nothing about the truth of the faiths of either group, but it does show that Unitarianism is not an obscure cult.
Yup - a lot of the people that I meet, when I talk to them and realize their personal beliefs jive well with UUism, respond with, “Oh, I don’t believe in organized religion,” in such a tone that it implies religion in general is some sort of scam.
Also true. And if they do go searching for guidance during a bad spell, they usually go back to the church of their youth; although they might not believe in those teachings anymore, its what they know and are comfortable with.
Valid point. (Of course, I’d like to think that my church is better than that… )
Actually, I get the impression from the people I know that a good of these kinds of people eventually found their way to UUism.
Also true, but again, UU churches vary so widely, I think its a very small percentage that couldn’t get what they need service-wise at a UU fellowship.
All good points, indeed. Although these reasons, IMHO, speak directly to the vitality and attractiveness of UUism to these kinds of people, those very reasons might also keep them away. An interesting connundrum…
Esprix
Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you.
What a novel concept… I know!