Liberal, would you kindly give it a rest about Andrew Jackson? (mild)

The BBQ Pit
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Most people don’t know that in 1809, Andrew Jackson cloned himself into a vast army, which allowed him to personally kill every Indian that died thereafter. There were so many Andrew Jacksons that the extras spent their time knitting plague blankets. When the Andrew Jackson Horde reached the Pacific in 1899, it was mistaken for a tidal wave of beavers, and subsequently rendered into pelts by Russian fur traders.

All that is left of Andrew Jackson today is a single malevolent clone, hibernating deep in Appalachia, kept alive on the blood of Indian children.

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I’d pay $20 to watch that movie.

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[QUOTE=Liberal]
What are you, illiterate? To repeat: This was genocide pure and simple, covering a massive area — an entire hemisphere — and lasting for generations. It was carried out against more than 500 different nations of people who were for all intents and purposes defenseless. Yes, that’s worse than the holocaust.

Do me a favor. Stop reading my posts. You can’t seem to get a fucking single thing right.
[/QUOTE]

So don’t accuse me of defending Jackson when I didn’t. I’m not the only one who’s illiterate.

So, that’s worse than the entire HISTORY of oppression against the Jews-not just the Holocaust?
Or entire generations of the Irish suffering under British rule-and oppression?

Both of which, by the way, was happening long before Columbus even set foot on western territory.

I’m NOT saying, by the way, that you shouldn’t be angry about what happened. I’m saying stop being so fucking hysterical.

And if you’re going to get so hysterical about Jackson and the Trail of Tears, how about looking up the following people and events:

-Leopold II of Belgium
-Maximiliano Hernández Martínez, and La Matanza.
-Anastasio Somoza García
-the Potato Famine (which, by the way, was NOT just about a blight on the potato crop. Did you know that food was being exported OUT of Ireland at the time?)
Or read the following books:

King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa, by Adam Hochschild

Inevitable Revolutions: the United States In Central America, by Walter LaFeber

The Great Hunger: Ireland: 1845-1849, by Cecil Woodham-Smith

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]

-Leopold II of Belgium
-Maximiliano Hernández Martínez, and La Matanza
-Anastasio Somoza García

[/QUOTE]

What denomination of US currency are these on? Are our children taught that these are heros in school?

Because if they arent, then your comparison is missing the point entirely.

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I can’t identify with Liberal’s personalization of historical horrors. So yeah, I think he’s taking his hate towards Jackson to a scary, overly dramatic extreme.

But Guin, in past threads about oppression, you’ve brought up other groups. I’m always curious what point you think you’re making. Let’s say Liberal’s anger is genuine and real. Is mentioning that the same thing happened to the Jews supposed to make him feel better?

If someone punches in you in the neck, are you supposed to be quiet because some other poor sap got punched in the gut a million miles away? What does one have to do with the other?

Even if you don’t intend to, it comes across as, “What are you complaining about? The Jews had it worse!”

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
I’m saying stop being so fucking hysterical.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that word means what you think it means. You opened the Pit thread and made a big stink about it. I think I’ve been fair and reasonable about the Indian Hater. I’ve given him credit for his cunning and for his consistency. I’ve noted that he fought side-by-side with Indians when it served his purposes. I’ve noted that he bothered to attempt legitimizing his obsessions by political machinations — with the notable exception of telling the Supreme Court to go fuck itself. If you don’t like my opinions, then argue them in Great Debates or something, rather than pitching a fit in the Pit and then calling me “hysterical”.

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[QUOTE=monstro]
I can’t identify with Liberal’s personalization of historical horrors.
[/QUOTE]
That’s because you didn’t spend your childhood on my grandmother’s lap. :wink:

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I didn’t mean it that way.

It’s more that, he’s constantly going on and on about it hysterically, instead of being calm and rational.

Of course his anger should be real. I just wish he’d tone it down a little, if you will.

And I wish he’d direct such passion about what’s going on TODAY. You can’t change the past-you can learn from it and try and prevent it from happening again.

Does that make sense?

(To be fair, Lib, I DID feel that way when listening in my Latin American studies classes. Ditto from my Russian history course)

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
I didn’t mean it that way.

It’s more that, he’s constantly going on and on about it hysterically, instead of being calm and rational.

Of course his anger should be real. I just wish he’d tone it down, a little, if you will.
[/QUOTE]
How about this:

Despite his various accomplishments, which included establishment of regulations against corporate coercion, Andrew Jackson’s reputation will forever bear the scars of consequences from his irrational hatred of Indians and blacks.

Is that better?

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[QUOTE=Liberal]
How about this:

Despite his various accomplishments, which included establishment of regulations against corporate coercion, Andrew Jackson’s reputation will forever bear the scars of consequences from his irrational hatred of Indians and blacks.

Is that better?
[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY. Sounds a lot like Teddy Roosevelt-on one hand, an environmentalist, a trust-buster, pro-labor, etc. And yet, the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, and the building of the Panama Canal should for ever taint his memory. Funny, I don’t really hate Teddy, so much, but reading about the treatment of those in Central America just boils my blood. (I guess I spent too much time in Dr. Brett’s classroom)

See, it’s all in how you word it. That’s pretty much what I meant.
:slight_smile:

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Well, let’s hope this marks a rapprochement between our two principals here (or at least the establishment of a fragile truce). :wink:

Meanwhile, for the sake of internet anthropologists in the year 3509, may I suggest the removal of the parenthetical from the thread title? Honestly, if they open this thinking that it’s what we refer to as “mild,” they’ll wonder what we used to do when we got upset at one another…

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
I didn’t mean it that way.

It’s more that, he’s constantly going on and on about it hysterically, instead of being calm and rational.

Of course his anger should be real. I just wish he’d tone it down a little, if you will.

And I wish he’d direct such passion about what’s going on TODAY. You can’t change the past-you can learn from it and try and prevent it from happening again.

Does that make sense?

(To be fair, Lib, I DID feel that way when listening in my Latin American studies classes. Ditto from my Russian history course)
[/QUOTE]

Sure. Get the bastard off the money and start teaching school kids he was a monster. Because that’s something that needs to be done TODAY.

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No (about the money), first find someone to replace him with.

Someone who’s NOT Reagan.

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[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
EXACTLY. Sounds a lot like Teddy Roosevelt-on one hand, an environmentalist, a trust-buster, pro-labor, etc. And yet, the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, and the building of the Panama Canal should for ever taint his memory. Funny, I don’t really hate Teddy, so much, but reading about the treatment of those in Central America just boils my blood. (I guess I spent too much time in Dr. Brett’s classroom)

See, it’s all in how you word it. That’s pretty much what I meant.
:slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure who Dr. Brett is, but this is a twisted view of the building of the Panama Canal. It was a boon for the residents of the Panama, it was just bad for the rich oligarchy of Colombia. what treatment of those in Central America are you specifically addressing?

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[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
No (about the money), first find someone to replace him with.

Someone who’s NOT Reagan.
[/QUOTE]
How 'bout this guy? Wouldn’t *that * be a hoot. :wink:

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[QUOTE=Liberal]
How 'bout this guy? Wouldn’t *that * be a hoot. :wink:
[/QUOTE]

I was thinking Sequoyah, but that would work.

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[QUOTE=bdgr]
What denomination of US currency are these on? Are our children taught that these are heroes in school?

Because if they arent, then your comparison is missing the point entirely.
[/QUOTE]
Well, to be fair, while many modern history textbooks discuss Jackson’s contribution to the rise of mass democracy and party politics in the US (including incidents like the bank veto and tariff issues), they also spend time discussing his Indian policies, including the Trail of Tears, in fairly uncomplimentary ways. I can’t claim to be familiar with what is taught in every school in the United States, but many high school textbooks make a pretty good effort at detailing atrocities like the Trail of Tears, and in my experience the interpretation offered to college survey courses conforms with much of Lib’s interpretation of events.

And historians have, over the last decade or so, taken this position in the face of loud and vehement criticism from conservatives like Lynn Cheney who, in the debate over national history standards, complained that too much attention has been paid to women and minorities, and that the illustrious deeds of our great (white male) forefathers are being diminished in a wave of political correctness.

I think the hero mythos of Andrew Jackson is the exception rather than the norm in much historical scholarship and teaching these days.

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[QUOTE=bdgr]
I was thinking Sequoyah, but that would work.
[/QUOTE]

It would just be so… meaningful. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I’m not sure who Dr. Brett is, but this is a twisted view of the building of the Panama Canal. It was a boon for the residents of the Panama, it was just bad for the rich oligarchy of Colombia. what treatment of those in Central America are you specifically addressing?
[/QUOTE]

As a long-term resident of Panama, I’d have to agree with that. Colombia was the country that got screwed. While there certainly were a lot of shady dealings that went on with the ceding of the Canal Zone, and Panama got a worse deal than it should have had due to strong-arm tactics by the US, overall the Canal was, and is, a tremendous boon to Panama. Although Roosevelt isn’t exactly revered here, there still is a street that bears his name.

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[QUOTE=bdgr]
What denomination of US currency are these on? Are our children taught that these are heros in school?

Because if they arent, then your comparison is missing the point entirely.
[/QUOTE]

However, Jackson had no direct participation in the Trail of Tears, so you are “missing the point entirely”.

I cheerfully concede he was a racist bastard, but so were most of the dudes around then.