Why do you give a shit? If after all my explanations you still don’t get it, why can’t you just let it go? If people are talking about Andrew Jackass, I have just as much right to express myself as they do. I have made no comments on any books I haven’t read other than to ask why I should read them specifically when I’ve already read a dozen books on this topic. My comment in the thread you’re referencing in your OP was about Remini — a well known ass-kisser, not about his book. I asked why I should bother to read it any more than a book on Cheney by Rove. If I want a biased author, I’ll find one.
So, two things: (1) get your facts straight before you pit people, and (2) fuck off.
Because you hadn’t even read said book, yet you felt perfectly qualified to comment on it.
And my point was this:
Your “reasons” are hysterics, not facts. As Grossbottom pointed out, it wasn’t YOU that it happened to. I see people today who have suffered much worse, by much more recent travesties. Yet, I don’t see them screaming at the top of their lungs, and acting like said person stole their teddy bear.
I don’t know what books you’ve read, but I’m guessing (based on your posts) that they are seriously slanted in the direction of the “noble savage” mythos.
When you said “If I read it, will you choose to respect my views?” was that code for “Will you agree with me?”
Calls 'em like I sees 'em. I see histrionics, I call histrionics.
Liar. I guess you think if you say it enough times, it’ll become true. I commented on the author. Can you not tell the difference between a person and a pile of paper? And you didn’t even link to the post you’re pissed about anyway. You linked to the wrong one — twice — where I commented on a documentary that I watched. You’re a fucking idiot. Typical Jackass defender.
As you know quite well, the vast majority of deaths among Native Americans after Columbus’s arrival were the result of Old World diseases to which the Indians had no immunity. Estimates are that 90% of the pre-Columbian population succumbed to disease. This was a catastrophe, to be sure, but one of chance and not ill will. Your painting this as part of an intentional genocide is dishonest.
So these plagues left maybe 6 million Native Americans, who then came into conflict with European arrivals.
The slaughter was mutual, as you know. Desperately poor European arrivals settled along the frontier and found themselves pitted agaisnt equally desperate Indians trying against the odds to hold onto their land.
There were atrocities on both sides. It’s just that it’s not currently fashionable to mention the atrocities committed by Indians against American settlers. (Such as babies having their heads bashed against walls, fetuses being cut out of pregnant women, genitals and breasts being cut off, and scalps being taken.) When we fail to mention Indian atrocities, it makes it much easier to paint American atrocities against Indians as unprovoked attacks on innocents. History has shades of gray.
Not for lack of desire. Tecumseh’s stated goal was to push the white man into the sea.
I ascribed no such personality to either man, and the Indians were not “Switzerland.”
Women and children got killed by both sides on various occasions. It’s just not fashionable to mention the women and children being killed by Indians. See my comments upthread on the Fort Mims Massacre.
Sometimes it was genocide. (See Sheridan, Phil.) No excuse for that. Sometimes it was relocation and property theft. Sometimes it was low-grade warfare along the frontier. Mostly it was death by disease.
The Cherokee were given the option of remaining in the East and becoming citizens, with each household to receive 160 acres of land. They rejected this option. I understand their reason for doing so, but to say that they were not given the option of assimilation is simply false.
You dropped a one-liner about Bush. I gave you a one-liner retort.
No. It was a peace offering. I was willing to read a book by a man who characterized the Indian Hater as our rescuer. But as far as you’re concerned, it seems, our systematic 300-year annihilation is on a par with European feudal disputes. Frankly, your obsession over a single source reveals your own bias, so you have no standing to accuse me of being closed minded.
The Fort Mims Massacre? You must be joking. White idiots decided to deposit their asses right in the middle of a Creek civil war. What’s supposed to happen when the Uber-race decides what to occupy? Everyone else should just drop what they’re doing and retreat to the wilderness and perish?
That’s not a fucking option; that’s a demand. That’s like saying that a rape victim has the option of cooperating. Georgia had already declared its sovereignty over all Indian lands, and whites had already begun to pillage Cherokee homes and property. It would have been accepting a death warrant to remain behind. Even the marchers on the Trail of Tears were themselves pirated, and their homes ransacked the moment they were taken from them. Stop painting such a goddamn pretty picture of such a terrible tragedy.
There was enormous controversy even at the time, and you’re describing it as something as simple as a decision over dinner with the family. Do your books not tell you about how the Southern removalists were instrumental in electing Jackson? How he made unauthorized treaties with people who did not represent the Cherokee nation? How he ignored tens of thousands of signatures protesting his treaty? How he ignored Supreme Court decisions rather than enforcing them?
The times were not simple choices offered by a benevolent man. You are so uninformed and biased that, as I said, discussion with you is impossible.
You called it “a drop”. If you’re not proud of it, that’s your burden to bear.
**Spoke ** will have the last word in here. Nothing will convince him that Jackson was anything but a benevolent friend to the Cherokee who marched them off to Oklahoma for their own good. But I intend to ignore Guin’s incredulous demand. You’ve seen photos of my father and grandmother. One spoiled bitch who just can’t bare to skip what she doesn’t want to read will not silence my defense of people who loved me.
I read the first page and the last page (sorry, but my eyes glazed over in the middle) but drawing from past Lib postings my conclusion is that he talks a good game and that’s about it. I’ve never seen him type about cultural events or the last tribal council meeting he attended; I’ve never seen a link to something he wrote for a tribal newsletter; I’ve never seen him type anything about creating a traditional meal from scratch; and his Libertarian beliefs seem to be in direct contrast to the traditional family/tribal support system that many American Indian tribes practiced.
He reminds me of the Boston Irish who financially supported the IRA despite the fact that they were grand-, great-grand-, and great-great-grand-children of Irish immigrants and had no idea they were throwing their money at gang members.
Lib would impress me much more if I knew what he was doing to support the very real issues aboriginal peoples face in 2008 rather than bringing up what happened to them in 1908.
My observation of Lib is that he tends to post more about what moves and inspires his passions and intellect than about what he does with his time. If he’s silent on a subject, I don’t feel comfortable concluding anything about his activities.
Find where I defended Jackson?
And all Native Americans were pure and good, right?
So, are you seriously saying that the Trail of Tears was the WORST tragedy in history? Worse than say, the Armenian genocide, or the centuries of oppression of the Irish people by the British? Worse than anything that ever happened to the Jews?
:dubious:
What are you, illiterate? To repeat: This was genocide pure and simple, covering a massive area — an entire hemisphere — and lasting for generations. It was carried out against more than 500 different nations of people who were for all intents and purposes defenseless. Yes, that’s worse than the holocaust.
Do me a favor. Stop reading my posts. You can’t seem to get a fucking single thing right.
