I would suggest that Lieberman has a long enough track record in government for you to judge his positions (and personality and character) based on it, without resorting to extrapolations about what he would do based on his religious beliefs.
sailor,
You seemed to be saying two different things. One, that you find Orthodox Jewish belief and believers to be nuts, and for this reason cannot vote for a member of this faith. Two, that you think as a practical matter that it may interfere with his performance of his duties. Please clarify.
I am hardly the prototypical Jew (if there was such a thing). I am an atheist who at the same time, for reasons entirely personal, still feels himself to be quite Jewish.
So it may dismay some of my fellow Jews when I say that APB9999 is not entirely wrong about the inherent superiority expressed privately in Jewish circles - be they reform, conservative or orthodox. Though I do not believe that this type of attitude is the exclusive domain of Jews, in general, I am ashamed to admit that it is alive and well in our tight knit community. I have experienced it in person from both friends and strangers, reform and conservative Jews alike. I’ve experienced it unmistakenly from my childhood’s best friend’s mother to a young rabbi acquintance I used to have in my 20’s. It is undoubtendly an attitude I would call pervasive in Jewish culture.
Now I can justify this attitude with the best of them. Certainly few people have been persecuted as aggressively and methodically through the ages as have the Jews. Still, as a Jew, it makes me ashamed to hear this kind of sentiment expressed by my fellow semites. It is an attitude which shames me and makes me cringe at times. In my youth, I will admit to have run with the pack and shared that sentiment on some few occasions. I have lived to regret that kind of callous superiority in my later adulthood. In fact, it is that close minded bigotry that has driven me from possibly participating more actively in the more traditional practices of my “race”.
So when I read about the obvious sentiments which place Lieberman in the position of choosing between his possible public duty (to the office of VP) and his private duty to his religious beliefs, it disturbs me to see that people (Jews and Gentiles alike) continue to project their insecurities and prejudices on an individual who (in this case) has proven himself to be at least worthy of the opportunity to serve a high public office. It is a further injustice to judge him as a failure in one arena if he succeeds in the other.
Yes, I would not hire someone whose ideas (religious or otherwise) might interfere with his job.
Also, everything else being equal, I would rather hire a guy who shares my view of the world. I cannot understand what is wrong with riding an elevator any day of the week. If someone has beliefs which I find strange it would turn me off.
Would I vote for someone who handles snakes as a matter of course in his prayers? No. That’s just me. I find it weird.
As for laws that legislate no Sunday commerce… I do not understand the question. Most of Europe is like that and I find it idiotic and inconvenient but I have no choice. Civil disobedience? The store is closed! You mean I should stand outside all Sunday in a neat line of one and make my feelings known?
I believe you should have that right - provided your misgivings are founded in fact not prejudice.
Example: The fact that employee A quietly retreats to a spare office or his car for a brief prayer three times a day should be entirely acceptable. However, if employee A proceed to sacrifice a live chicken in his cubicle as part of his daily prayer, that is arguably not acceptable.
What is your objection to Mr. Lieberman using the stairs to get to his office on Saturday? How does that affect you or his ability to do his work?
As an aside, I think it will server as a great example to those fat bastards in gov’t today. ParticipAction seems to have escaped most career politicians.
I think we’ve gone from the sublime to the ridiculous again…
If it is important enough to you then perhaps you should. Who knows, you may start a ground swell movement for change. Today, Sunday Shopping. Tomorrow, topless Tuesdays!
While I agree that this would present surmountable problems for a senator or even a vice president, what about for a president? No one has really addressed that portion of my OP.
Don’t forget, the primary purpose of a vice president is to become president if the Commander in Chief dies or becomes incapacitated. I would guess that observing the Sabbath would become HIGHLY difficult as the Numero Uno Honcho.
Unless Lieberman used the “working for the good of mankind” loophole in a general sense with regard to his daily presidential duties.
I would be interested in knowing how Israeli leaders have dealt with this “problem.”
I think this has become nothing more than a tempest in a tea cup.
Mr. Lieberman, undoubtedly an intelligent man, has surely considered the possible impact on his religious practices if he were to be elected to the office of VP. He has accepted to become Gore’s running mate and thusly accepted the potential impact on not only his religious but entire private life. Does anyone seriously think that either he or Gore failed to take into consideration the impact his perceived religious practices might have on the campaign, let alone the vice-presidency?
I do not for a second imagine that he is as religious as the media has painted him to be. Nor do I believe that he will become inflexible about “working for the good of mankind” while in office. He, of all people, is the least confused about the fact that he is going to serve not just the Jewish Americans but All Americans while in office.
I simply don’t believe that this was ever an issue outside of what the popular media had initially made it out to be.
Good point! I’m not familiar with his record yet, though, so I can only extrapolate from the little info I have. I’m sure as the campaign goes on, I’ll get to hear the much more relevant information you refer to.
QuickSilver, thanks for being honest with me. I must say I’ve seen the attitude as much among Christians as Jews, and Christians are usually more obnoxious about it, IMO, because they have a desire to include others in their “superiority”, which, thankfully, the Jews generally lack. None of this necessarily has anything to do with Lieberman, though.
Does anyone more familiar with his record than I have a guess as to my example earlier? WOULD Mr. Lieberman support a non-sectarian, general, prayer to God in the schools?
I am not a religious person and, to me, refusing to use a motor car and handling snakes are about as irrational. (The Lord sayeth “handle snakes” vs the Lord sayeth “don’t ride motor cars on the Sabath”). My problem is not with what the lord told you but with the fact that you believe the lord told you anything.
I would prefer a world where most people are not religious or, at least, religion has very low weight in their decisions. If religion is your #1 issue to the point where it overrides everything else, I would rather not give you certain responsibilities.
Lieberman was asked on TV if he would ride a car on the Sabath for the inauguration and he said he would walk from the Capitol to the White house.
I think the office of VP, and of the President, has enough challenges already that it does not need someone adding to it. I would prefer a guy who is ready to get on a plane whenever it may be necessary.
That does not mean I do not respect him. It just means I do not consider him the best man for that job. If I need a plumber I call a plumber who can do the job and not a guy I respect but cannot do the job.
Having said that and on another point that has been mentioned I would say there are different kinds of superiority.
A group who says “we are superior to outsiders just because we are us and we can do anything we want just because we are better” is odious (think white supremacist).
But a group who thinks “We are better because we demand more of ourselves (noblesse oblige) and what is good enough behaviour for others is not good enough for us, we strive to be better” this I find laudable as long as it is not exclusive.
I have very limited experience with Jews but mostly I would characterize them as the second way. In any case, I have profound admiration for many of their values and for their culture.
Note that the Prime Minister & Presidents of Isreal have, for the large part, been Orthodox, and the Country handles emergencies and such quite well on the Sabbath. We have also had some very CHRISTIAN Presidents, who prayed a lot, and went to church every Sunday, again, the country survived.
ferkrissake, Nixon was a Quaker, and that did not stop him from waging war. Why was this not brought up during THAT election.
Cheney is very religous, and “Christian conservative”. Why is no one saying that he might not be able to “do the job”?
Yes, I agree that the details of observing the Sabbath and the like are hardly insurmountable and will cause, at most, very petty problems. I think this is a good example of the media focusing on trivia because they have no respect for the public. I would much rather hear analyses of how Lieberman’s faith affects his views and his politics, rather than this nonsense about whether he can bang the gavel in the Senate on a Saturday! Yeesh. I’ve seen a little analysis, but not nearly enough.
Well, since no one wants to take a stab at whether he’d support ecumenical prayer, how about this: is he a creationist?
BTW, I went out of my way to read a little more about the guy, but I’m still left with only infered answers to my questions. The guy is very photogenic, though, I’ll give him that. He’s got a good face.
Okay APB, I’ll give both of them a shot.
Ecumenical prayer- probably not As I tried to say before ( but didn’t do so well), I think those of minority religions are more sensitive to the fact that there really is no such thing as an ecumenical prayer,even if the specific prayer would be acceptable to them. You could come up with a generic Christian prayer, or even a Judeo-Christian one, but I think it would be impossible to come up with a prayer acceptable to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans and atheists. I suspect members of all those minority religions ( not just Jews) wouldn’t be likely to advocate prayer in public schools [slight hijack- I remember reading that part of the reason why Catholic and Jewish schools were started in the US was because of the Protestant influence in public schools]
Creationism - My understanding ( and I’m sure someone else here knows better than me and will correct me)is that the Jewish view of Genesis is closer to (but not the same as) the Catholic view (not literal history or incompatible with evolution) than it is to the creationist view.
Just to look at it from another perspective for a minute, I for one would be suspicious and even scornful if Mr. Lieberman, whose religious beliefs apparently do NOT include wearing a yarmulke daily, suddenly whipped one out and put it on, because then it would seem that he is playing up his religious affiliation in a manner that the timing would indicate was less than sincere.
Similarly, I would be suspicious and scornful if his habit was to wear a yarmulke daily and he set his yarmulke aside upon receiving the nomination, because then it would seem clear that he was attempting to downplay his religious affiliation. This has nothing to do with Judaism per se, by the way; I’d be just as suspicious and scornful of any person of any faith who seemed to either embrace or distance themselves from their faith in the name of political expediency.
But that’s not the case with Lieberman; he apparently does not wear a yarmulke every day and, importantly, he never has. Chaim may take issue with his disregard of this Jewish custom, but it appears clear that he is innocent of any charge that he might be exploiting or disowning his faith.
My initial reaction to this question was, “Good Lord no!” Don’t misunderstand me, that is still my reaction - I just need to look for a cite to back that up.
Lieberman is Modern Orthodox. Being an Orthodox Jew, of any type, does not mean checking your logic or scientific knowledge at the door. I have yet to meet a Modern Orthodox Jew who is a creationist, supports prayer in school, or thinks that a woman’s place is solely in the home (her place in the shul is where we start to disagree.)
I don’t know if Lieberman supports ecumenical prayer in schools. I doubt that he does, and I hope to hell not - that damn well might drive me to vote for Nader, a man I don’t want to vote for.