What is a Jew?

Great Debates
1

I am hearing a lot about Joe Lieberman being Jewish and how can he approve of partial birth abortion. The question isn’t to get a debate on this procedure but why is being Jewish even a factor?

We have our constitution and constitutional law that states clearly that our federal government does not have the authority to legislate these social issues.

My question is how would each of you define being Jewish?

Is it religious, nationalistic, cultural, attitude? What is this mysterious label that is put on so many people.

In my mind, I am making a comparison to Harry Browne who is very Christian and also pro-life. He is running as a Libertarian that recognizes the fact that this is not a Federal Issue.

Help me out on this. What is a Jew? and what does it have to do with the constitution?

2

Yes, yes, yes and hell yes. We’re a complicated people, and nobody understands us but our women.

3

I’m a gentile…but this seems like it might be a good place to start

http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/hl-index.html

4

The question is a very complicated one, but the comparison between Lieberman and Browne is alot simpler. The difference is that Browne, unlike Lieberman, has not chosen to make his religion and religious values a centerpiece of his campaign. As such, no one cares what they are. Lieberman, by contrast, has made much of his religion and the moral compass that it gives him. In light of this, people have a much greater interest in what these values are, and how closely he adheres to them.

5

One who never pays retail.

6

What is a Jew?

Well, Orthodox Jews would answer that it’s someone who was born of a Jewish mother or converted according to Jewish Law.

Other denominations of Judaism have different answers.

At its core, Judaism is a religion. There is no action, ritual, object, phrase, etc. that can be defined as Jewish that does not have its root somewhere in either the Bible or the Talmud.

Because all descendants of Jacob/Israel had, millenia ago, accepted the Jewish religion, the word has taken on a connotation of nationality or ethnicity. However, since conversion to Judaism is possible, this would be inaccurate. True, not all Jews are religious. However, the fact that they choose not to make use of the religion they were born into does not mean that it is not a religious identification.

As for what it has to do with the constitution…nothing.

7

“CARTMAN: Kyle, all those times I said you were a dumb, stupid Jew, well, I was wrong, you’re not a Jew.
KYLE: Cartman, I am Jewish!
CARTMAN: There, there, don’t be hard on yourself, Kyle.”

-From “South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut”

8

John Jew! Damn right…

That say that Jew is a baaad mother-
Shut yer mouth!
I’m only talking bout Jew-
Then we can dig it!

Of course, the right answer is that a Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Things rapidly degenerate if you try and define it any more than that, really. It is a long, steep, cliff when you take the definition one step beyond that.

An example –
My friend, who was raised Jewish, found out 1 month before her Orthodox wedding that she indeed wasn’t Jewish (enough). Her mother had what she thought was an Orthodox conversion before she was born, but turned out to be a conservative conversion. Oops. Now, since she has little intention of having a Kosher household after the wedding, she does not have the right of return to Israel.

See what I mean about the long, steep cliff?

9

I understand the Israeli Rabbis being picky about a Conservative conversion, but why doesn’t she want to keep a Kosher home?

10

edwino said:

Huh? As far as I know, a Conservative conversion is good enough for right of return to Israel. I know there have been fights about not letting in Reform conversions, and I don’t know where that stands right now (I thought the Ultra-Orthodox lost, frankly), but I never really thought there was a problem with Conservative.

11

An Orthodox conversion is a sure thing. A conservative conversion like mine they might or might not let me in.

12

Our women understand us? really? Jeez, even I don’t understand us!

13

Of course they understand us. That’s how they control us.

14

**

She was raised conserva-reform. Her husband-to-be was raised conserva-dox. Neither of them keep strictly Kosher, but neither of them eat lots of shellfish, pork, milk and meat, etc. etc. I think they are a little lenient about some of the actual dietary aspects – they eat catfish and so forth. They don’t want to go to the hassle of getting 2 sets of dishes, 2 sinks, strict separation, everything in the mikvah or buried in the backyard if it gets mixed up.

The Orthodox rabbi refuses to convert her if she doesn’t assure a kosher wedding with a kosher household. It is a big imposition, and she can’t change her whole lifestyle for a hairs-breadth of Judaism. Both she and her husband are reconstructionist Jews – they do not accept the infallibility of the Torah, nor do they actively wait for the messiah. But, they accept most of the social tenets (I would think apart from Leviticus) and they definitely feel Jewish and actively lead a Jewish lifestyle. Her husband reads Torah and leads services every Saturday in a conserva-dox chapel.

One step over that long, steep cliff.

As I understand it, like was said earlier, since David Ben Gurion agreed to base the Right of Return on Halachic principles (he was secular), the Orthodox have free reign on what they consider legal in Israel.

What bothers me is my wedding. By all means it was a Jewish-ly legal thing – we had a Kosher ketubah, the Sheva Brochas were said, my wife and I are as Ashkenazi as they come, etc. The thing is it was performed by my wife’s Reform rabbi, and without my knowledge (and before I signed), my wife’s witness happened to be her maid of honor (who signed in Hebrew). So, the ketubah ain’t kosher. The problem is not with Right of Return for my wife, for my future putative children, or for me, but rather, if in Israel, those future putative children would be Jewish mamzers (bastards).

I know this is quibbling with details, but Jews IMHO are always concious of 1930s Germany or 1490s Spain – from accepted, important members of society to targets of hate in under a decade.

15

Is it religious, nationalistic, cultural, attitude?

–Edwino, you’re introducing another facit of Jewishness…lifestyle.

16

Edwino - for the record, the State of Israel recognizes any legal marrige performed outside its borders. If it accepts you as citizens, it has to accept your marital status, even if your union was through a civil ceremony. This is why many Israelis marry in Cyprus to evade the Orthodox establishment. And even if in wasn’t so, halachiclly, a mamzer is someone with at least one parent married to someone else. Children born out of wedlock bear no stigma, and are quite common.

The whole issue of non-Orthodox rights is one of the most burning questions in Israeli society (at least in normal times), equivalent to the American abortion or gun-ownership debates. Sufficed to say, it is one area in which I am not very proud of my country. I debate the issue quite often on Hebrew-language forums, and quite frankly - I’d rather not debate it here.

17

There are no denominations of Jews in boxcars.

So get married again by an Orthodox Rabbi.

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18

I am familiar with the history of Jewry. It is interesting to read about the different parts that you all have described. Here’s my next question:

Joe Lieberman is being criticized for running for election on a Democratic platform that agrees with the Supreme court that Partial Birth Abortions are legal. He claims to be Orthodox and this would be a break with his faith should he swear his allegiance to the constitution.

Do Americans think that his religious doctrine would influence his job of VP that might possibly take an action against Israel? or promote PBA?

Do we let him take a vow and then back down on it? Is this what we expect from our elected officials? Would we not respect a man who says he is against abortion because of his Christian doctrine, but swears to uphold the Constitution even if it means keeping the procedure legal? Where do we draw the line on this?

We never had this enter the elections before. There was a question of Kennedy being a Catholic. I don’t think anyone believed he would jeopardize the country for his doctrine.

This is worrying me considerably that our candidates don’t realize what they are doing when they get before the people and court and swear their allegiance to the constitution.

I believe our house/senate has not obeyed their vows and that is one of the reasons our country is in such big trouble.

Larry Klayman presented the debate last Friday called “Ethics in Government” and I had my question ready for Gush and Bore on this subject. They didn’t show up so the question was pulled.

Any of you have any thoughts on this?

19

Sandyr, I think you are slightly confused. Abortion is a Christian issue, not a Jewish one; even the Ultra-Orthodox are unopposed, as a rule, at least in cases of pregnancy outside of wedlock (they do not approve of sex outside of wedlock, of course, but they see abortion as a legitimate way to prvrnt the scandal). Most pro-life Orthodox Jews act on their conscience, not their religeon.

Frankly, I’m not sure I like the way your leading this discussion. The Constitution is a legal document, not a religeous one; are you saying that religeous people can’t obey the law?

20

Alessan:

I don’t think this is correct. While Orthodox Jews believe abortion is permissible in life-threatening cases, I don’t think that it’s considered a “legitimate way to prevent scandal.” The halachic issues are complex and I don’t intend to go into them, but suffice it to say that in the end result (i.e., possibly not for the same reasons), Orthodox Judaism’s position on abortion is a lot closer to anti- than to pro-.

Chaim Mattis Keller