[Linguistic Nitpick] Since all language is based on Universal Grammar that’s hardwired into our brains, it’s actually quite accurate to say that all languages are, essentially, one language with almost infinite dialects. Now, on with the show. (Good Pitting, by the way.) [/LN]
Actually, John, save for the occasional immigrant or tourist family or group of business travelers, the overlap is the other way. Basque and Catalan are both spoken in enclaves, substantial in the Basque case, across the French border.
France, amusingly, is so highly defensive of la belle langue that it refuses to acknowledge the other major languages spoken within the country: Occitan, Savoyard, Breton, Alsatian German, Flemish, Basque, and Catalan, considering them all “dialects of French” – which is of course infuriating to anyone with any linguistic scholarship.
Nitpick: It’s “galego” in Galician; “gallego” is the Spanish term, and I was gently corrected on that point by the staff of a wonderful little vegetarian restaurant in Santiago de Compostela, which had light fixtures made from carved-up coffee cans and socialist slogans, written (of course) in Galician on its walls.
I’m not aware of any substantial number of Celtic words in Galician; I don’t doubt that at least some words have survived, along with other markers of Celtic identity like the bagpipes - but I didn’t run into any Celtic words in my (admittedly limited) acquaintance with the language. I’d be delighted if you had any resources discussing it.
Don’t forget Asturian (asturianu, or lleonés, or mirandés, as the Portuguese dialect is called.) There’s not many speakers left, but it’s at least noticeably distinct from Spanish. Astur-Leonese is essentially moribund, but it has some interesting features - like Aragonese and Catalan, initial “L” changed to “Ll” in most contexts; it also has even more of the rising diphthongs characteristic of Spanish than Spanish does.
I know Chomsky said it, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. That idea is certainly not uncontroversial.
Eh, we could take that to a GD thread, as it’s too much of a hijack for this thread. Suffice it to say, it’s not just because ‘Chomsky said so.’
See you in GD if you want to continue.
My point is that it’s hardly something every linguist agrees upon; Chomsky’s particular formulation of Universal Grammar and the “language organ” are simply not ideas that linguists necessarily agree with; in fact, there’s still a substantial crowd that doesn’t believe in linguistic nativism at all. It shouldn’t be presented as a fact; there’s not nearly enough evidence to conclude that it is.
Nitpick 2: Extremaduran. Extremadura is in Spain; Estremadura is a region of Portugal.
I thought Estremadura was that hunky guy on CHiPS.
Not to mention that grammar ≠ language. Even if we are hardwired for grammar, that doesn’t make evey language a dialect of some Ur-language.
However, from what we know of our evolutionary past, and that we have gone thru at least one major evolutionary bottleneck, it’s not unreasonable to postulate that all languages are related, even if so distantly as to be unrecognizably so at this point. In fact I suspect that is more likely the case than that some tribe or clan of humans created an entirely new (spoken) language from scratch sometime after the last bottleneck.
Ex: 
You are, of course, correct on the single-L spelling. I got that info. from a remarkable article on Galego by a linguistic-cultural promotional group, so it may well be somewhat, well, an overstressing of a truth. They gave a few examples but stated it as a generalization. I’ll try to run that down again and post a link.
And I had completely forgot Asturian, about which I’ll defer totally to you.
I’d be willing to continue discussing the topic of the GQ thread, but not in the Pit. That debate was diverted (though my reaction certainly did not help to keep it on track) when Colibri changed the subject from the proper translation of the word “castellano” in the Spanish Constitution, to me and my motivations, when he injected this into the discussion: “I don’t know why you can’t simply admit you were wrong rather than getting into all this nit-picking to try to find some shred of truth in what you said.” The fact is, I was “getting into all this nit-picking” in an attempt to find the actual truth of the matter, and his accusation that I was dishonestly doing it only for my own self-justification was, A) wrong, and B) uncharacteristically insulting for Colibri. No, it was not an extreme of incivility, judged by the standards of the Board as a whole. But it was extremely uncivil for Colibri, which qualification has been excised from every subsequent quote, in order to show how much I had overreacted.
Perhaps remarking on Colibri’s turn from the drily academic, to the personal, was a mistake in the first place. But my intention in doing so was to try to get the discussion back on track, to change the subject back to the linguistic question that was more properly, according to GQ rules, the topic of the thread. That question had not yet been settled.
There’s no question that the interpretation that I offered in that discussion was open to debate. Even though I had a credible cite (not unimpeachable, and not beyond question, but credible), I was responded to as if I had just pulled the interpretation fresh out of my own ass. The interpretation wasn’t even mine; I was merely quoting a cite. Of course, that cite’s interpretation made sense to me, so I defended it.
But the chorus of, basically, “That’s dumb; everyone KNOWS Spanish is the official language of Spain,” rather than a mature attempt to discuss, let alone understand, the nuances and technicalities involved in the extremely limited context of the topic, still leaves me bewildered.
Almost none of what everyone who thinks they’re arguing with me has said is wrong, and I’ve made no claim that it is. Colibri quotes my cite, claiming it contradicts my interpretation, but glosses over the word “virtually,” though he bolds it. I have said over and over again that the context in which Castilian is the official language of Spain is only the narrowest, most pedantic, most technical, most official context; the context included in that word “virtually.” I never meant, despite the unclarity of my initial posts, to suggest that the context was any wider than that. I realized as I posted my first post that there was a lot more to the story, but I trusted that, in General Questions, the discussion would continue and the details would work themselves out. Perhaps I should have spent 6 or 8 hours and made sure that my first post preempted any and all possible arguments and anticipated any and all possible unclarities (not to mention hecklers). But I wasn’t submitting a thesis; I was jumping into a conversation. It’s unfortunate the conversation got so badly derailed, and then abruptly brought to a close, because if everyone had remained a grownup I feel pretty certain all the nuances and vagaries in this more-complicated-than-you’d-think topic would have been cleared up.
In any case, to repeat myself, I never meant to suggest that the proper name for the language spoken by 400 million people is Castilian; I understand that Castilian is “known as” Spanish to much of the world, that the two words are, in most instances, synonymous; and I never meant to suggest that Basque is linguistically Spanish, only that it is “one of the languages of Spain.” Nor did I ever claim that Spanish and Castilian are two different languages; only that they are two different names for the same language. I only meant that in the narrowest possible sense, in the technical definition of the phrase “official language,” the official name of the official language of the State of Spain according to the Constitution of Spain, is Castilian. Not the official language of the people, or of Spanish speakers elsewhere, or of anything else: only of the State of Spain, as specified in the Constitution.
Almost everything everyone else has said in that thread is also true, as it addresses wider contexts than the narrowest official context that I meant to address. Again, it’s only unfortunate Colibri had to inject personal motivations, and that I felt compelled to react; we spoiled a perfectly good thread on a fascinating subject.
The Constitution: Section 3.[ol][li]Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.[/li][li]The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Self-governing Communities in accordance with their Statutes.[/li][li]The richness of the different linguistic modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be specially respected and protected.[/ol] [/li]
Eight more cites: Cite: Language is the first element that shall be examined. Castilian is the national language of the entirety of Spain, as pointed out in the first clause of Article 3 of the 1978 Constitution, ‘Castilian is the official language of the state.’ “The use of the term ‘Castilian’, and not ‘Spanish’, makes an important statement acknowledging the existence of various ‘Spanish’ languages” (Mar-Molinero 337).
[PDF] There are four official languages in Spain: Castilian, Catalan, Basque and Galician. Presently, Castilian is official in the totality of the territory, and each of the three other languages shares co-officiality with Castilian in its own territory.
Cite: Castilian: Known around the world as “Spanish”, this is the official language of the country as it is stipulated in the Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.
Cite: Castilian, which is spoken in all the national territory, Equatorial Guinea, the former Spanish territory of Sahara, Central and South America (except Brazil and the Guyana) and parts of the Philippines, is the official and cultural language of some 400 million people the world over. Of these, nearly 350 million speak it as their mother tongue. These figures make the official language of the Spanish State the most widely spoken Romance language, an expressive instrument of a community which embraces two different worlds and which is spoken by people of different races.
Cite: The Spanish Constitution (1978)—which, incidentally, was published in the Boletín Oficial del Estado in Basque, Catalan and Galician as well as Castilian—establishes that Castilian is the official language of the State and requires all citizens to know it. . . . Catalonia’s Statute of Autonomy (1979) . . . proclaims that Catalan and Castilian are the two official languages. . . .
Cite: In the case of Spain, minority languages are widely spoken in five autonomous communities (Catalonia, the Basque country, Galicia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands). Under Article 3 of the Constitution (Castilian is the official language of the State and the other Spanish languages are also official in the respective autonomous Communities, in accordance with their statutes), the statutes of autonomy of those nationalities and regions enshrine the concept of equal official status of the languages. Autonomy statutes are of a dual nature since, although the peoples concerned participated directly in their preparation through their political representatives, the resulting legal text is in every case a rule having the status of State law and embodied in the legal order of the State. In effect, these texts provide that the regional language, along with Castilian, is the official language in the community and that any citizen is entitled to use either that language or Castilian in his relations with those public authorities whose jurisdiction is limited to the territory of the community concerned, whether they be regional or state bodies.
Cite: SPAIN: Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution states that: 1- Castilian is the official language of the state. It is the duty of all Spanish people to know it and it is their right to use it. 2-The other Spanish languages will also be official in the respective autonomous communities in conformity with their statuses. 3- The linguistic riches of Spain is a cultural heritage that should be respected and paid particular attention to. and Home rule status of the Generalitat of Catalunya 33.2: l16/1990 law special arrangements for the Val d’Aran, article 2: “The language of Aran, a variety of the Occitan and specific of the Val d’Aran, is official in the Val d’Aran. Catalan and Castilian are also official.”
And with all this, I’m not even saying I’m right; I’m only saying you had no right to dismissively and derisively call me flat out wrong, Colibri; nor to pit me for defending my cite. I understand and accept that there will be debate about how that word is translated, even in its constitutional context. (Although Google nets 117 results for the translation as"Castilian" and zero for “Spanish.”) But reasoned, mature debate; not “Sheesh. I don’t know why you can’t simply admit you were wrong rather than getting into all this nit-picking to try to find some shred of truth in what you said.”
(On preview: It’s interesting to see, with the linguistic debate that continues unabated in this thread—and all the necessary “nitpicks” that it elicits, each of which proves my point anew—that the GQ thread, if it hadn’t been closed, might well have found its way back on track. I doubt very much if any definitive conclusions would have been reached, but it would have continued to be an interesting discussion nonetheless. There’s obviously lots of room for discussion, and to definitively label someone “wrong,” as Colibri did, is very much out of place with a subject such as this one.)
As I said at the top, I’d be interested in discussing this further in a GQ or GD thread, but I’m not going to participate further in this Pit thread, and its inevitable, “Yuh, but yer dum cuz you like Showgirls.”
…and Uvula Donor is proven correct.
Wow. You typed “Castilian” into google and then listed the first 8 cites that popped up. Is that it?
The post linked to above by JohnBckWLD falls under the “let’s you and him fight” doctrine. It will be satisfactory to everyone if you do not do it again.
Don’t do it again.
You whiney little fuck. You worthless, disingenuous little bitch. Every time anyone criticizes your behavior, you pull the same shit shit: you claim to be constantly being hounded by everyone else for irrelevant reasons, because people just don’t like you. Listen, you stupid little shit: the only criticisms that have been lobbed your way in this thread are because of your behavior in the other thread. And even if they hadn’t been, it’s astonishing that you continue to paint yourself like a victim and seem not to even acknowledge the possibility that the continuous ill treatment you receive around here is the result of your continuous ill treatment of others. Your own behavior is what makes so many people around here dislike you, lissener, and that doesn’t make you a victim. It makes you an asshole. A whiny, weepy, pathetic, repulsive little asshole.
The context of the thread is simple, Lissener. You chimed in to “correct” Nava, who informed us that Spanish is the official language of Spain, with other languages co-official in their respective territories. Only Nava is Spanish, and a native speaker of Spanish, and apparently (I get this impression based upon other threads) from one of the Catalan-speaking areas of Spain, which indicates she has special expertise in the area. You popped up with an utterly irrelevant little nitpick: “It’s my understanding that, technically, ‘Spanish’ is a generic term that includes the languages you mention plus Castilian, which is (again, technically ) the official language of Spain. ‘Castilian’ is to ‘Spanish’ what ‘English’ is to ‘British.’”
Let’s count the ways in which you were wrong. Number one: you suggested that “Spanish” was some sort of all-encompassing generic term that describes other languages spoken in Spain. This is false. You suggested that “Spanish” includes the languages she mentioned plus Castilian - which entails that “Castilian” is a separate language from “Spanish”, which Nava had mentioned. This is false. You compared the term “Spanish” to “British”, implying that it’s only used to denote a location or a nationality. This is false.
You keep trying to hide behind terms like “pedantic” and “nitpick” to suggest that you are just trying to be absolutely, 100% “correct” in your use of the terminology - the problem being that you are not correct in any context. Find a cite that uses “Spanish” to mean Catalan or Galician. Or find a cite in Spanish that uses “español”. (The quote from the Constitution doesn’t count, since it’s using it as an attributive adjective describing nationality, not as a noun used as the name of a language. See my comparison to “Russian languages” and “Japanese languages” in an earlier post, and note the importance of the plural in those phrases.) Similarly, while “Castilian” is occasionally used in English to refer to Spanish, it’s certainly not consistently so, and Spanish is used in all sorts of formal and official contexts. The use of “Castilian” in that sense is uncommon and while I myself have used it in discussions of the history of the Spanish language (before it was the language of the Spanish state, there being no Spanish state until the 16th century) it’s certainly not required, or in any sense “more correct”, in any other context.
The bottom line is you were utterly, ridiculously presumptuous in correcting Nava on the name of her language and the languages of her state. You have clung to tenuous lines of argument from cites that don’t support your point. You have done so over and over, when you could have just admitted you were wrong. And when Colibri offered you the opportunity, you lapsed into one of your predictable - but no less pathetic for its predictability - tantrums about how you personally were being wronged. You couldn’t argue the issue on its merits, so you threw a whiny little fit claiming you had been insulted - which you hadn’t, but which you nevertheless richly deserved by that point.
Remember, lissener? Remember how you railed in an old pit thread about people who speak from a “position of authority” on issues they don’t understand? That’s you. Here. Now. You started an argument with a native spanish speaker, several fluent Spanish speakers, and a marvelously knowledgable philologist (or is it philologian? Either way, much love and mad props to Polycarp.) I’m joining in the throng - as someone who speaks Spanish, and is not shabbily acquainted with Galician and Catalan, and has studied the sociolinguistic situation of Spain’s minority languages - to tell you, once more, that you were wrong. There is no room for argument, because this is a matter of fact. And the assertions you made were factually wrong. You are arguing from a “position of authority” that you don’t hold. You are engaging in exactly what you dislike in others, you whinging little hypocrite. And like anyone who’s unacquainted with the field, you don’t know how to interpret the information you’re finding on the internet. So have some respect for those of us who do understand the subject matter and admit that you were arguing with those who have actual authority on the subject - an authority you don’t share.
Jesus, lissener. I tried to like you. But holy fuck - you made it impossible.
Oh, Brava. Genuine clapping Not just the marvelous diatribes, but also the linguistic info. This is quality Pit. 
Well, I started to write a response to lissener’s post, but then I figured, “Why bother?” And then after seeing Excalibre’s excellent response, I see he has done the job for me.
Taken together with the original thread and my OP, I think lissener’s post rather convincingly demonstrates that he is either a pathological liar, or so out of touch with reality and unaware of his own motivations as to be certifiably insane. By not offering an apology (as well as attempting to blame me, along with him, for derailing the thread) he shows himself to be without an iota of honor, and truly detestable. By saying that he will no longer participate in the thread, he also shows himself to be a coward.
Lissener, if you want to know why so many people on this board detest you and why you may be treated differently, you need only to look to the original thread and this one. Now I am also fully aware of what a vile piece of shit you are as well. I wonder what it must be like to be so utterly lacking in personal integrity or willingness to take responsibility for your own actions. If you are unliked by many on the board, you have only yourself to blame.
Lissener, you owe an apology to me; to the other participants in the original thread; to samclem and the other GQ moderators; and to the members of this board in general. It’s now obvious you are incapable of giving one, and that is truly pathetic.
I see my first instinct, to merely post my cites without comment, was the right one.
I agree that I was too definitive in my “correction” of Nava, although I tried to make it clear that I was speaking purely technically. I peppered it with qualifications, and began it with *“It’s my understanding,” *which I consider an invitation to discussion, not a definitive correction. Nonetheless I apologize to Nava for making a bit of technical pedantry sound like an outright correction; it was meant to add a layer of detail, not to paint her as ignorant or wrong. Again, I apologize to Nava for not making that clearer.
I had no intention of painting myself as a victim; I don’t feel like a victim. I feel like the thread was derailed on personal, rather than factual, grounds. Period.
Meanwhile, I put this question to four randomly chosen Spanish Professors, at the University of Washington, Columbia University, UC Berkeley, and the University of Chicago:
The following is a quote from the Constitution of Spain:
“El castellano es la lengua española oficial del Estado. (. . .) Las demás
lenguas españolas serán también oficiales en las respectivas
Comunidades Autónomas…”
Would you say that this means, in a limited, official sense only, that
“the official language of Spain is Castilian”? Or, how would you
translate that passage, in the strictest official sense?
I have so far received two answers, one from Washington and one from Columbia.
The first:
The second:
(I’m reluctant to publish specific identifying information here, since these were private communications and not published quotes. But I figure anyone else who wants to can find faculty email addresses and ask the question themselves.)
I will report back if and when I receive the other two answers.
Oh yeah? well I wrote to proffesors at harvard, yale, Berkeley, and stanford asking if lissener is a dick and they all said “indubitably”.
I am seriously bewildered, Colibri. Do my cites really mean nothing? Do they not demonstrate that there is a limited technical sense in which some educated people (not including myself of course) would indeed translate “castellano”, in that context, as “Castilian?”
You misread me greatly. If you have read my cites, are you dismissing them outright? Again, I seek not to prove myself right; only to prove that intelligent people can discuss it, and that you had no right to call me flat out “wrong.”
This is offered in a tone of honest bewilderment. I offered what I thought was further input to Nava’s post in a limited, technical sense, and I have only defended it in a limited, technical sense. I honestly do not see where that sets me up for this thread.
Please ghost write my apology for me, so I can see exactly what you think I should be apologizing for. If a light breaks, and it suddenly all makes sense, I will apologize. Until then, all I have done is find some cites and defend them. I will again apologize for following you into the realm of the personal, but I honestly don’t see how that earns me this level of vitriol.
Honestly, thoroughly bewildered.
As for being a coward, this is exactly why I’d intended not to participate further.
If you can calm down, Colibri, for long enough to discuss this rationally, I feel pretty certain we could reach an understanding. We’re obviously talking at cross-purposes, to some degree; I’m hugely curious as to what I’ve said that would make you characterize me as a “pathological liar.” Nothing I have said, in the previous thread or this one, has been a lie.
THe cites I’ve quoted put forth an interpretation of the phrase in question that makes more sense to me, logically, than your interpretation. Doesn’t that happen to you a hundred times a day, varying interpretations? How is that WWIII?
Still bewildered.