I’d be willing to continue discussing the topic of the GQ thread, but not in the Pit. That debate was diverted (though my reaction certainly did not help to keep it on track) when Colibri changed the subject from the proper translation of the word “castellano” in the Spanish Constitution, to me and my motivations, when he injected this into the discussion: “I don’t know why you can’t simply admit you were wrong rather than getting into all this nit-picking to try to find some shred of truth in what you said.” The fact is, I was “getting into all this nit-picking” in an attempt to find the actual truth of the matter, and his accusation that I was dishonestly doing it only for my own self-justification was, A) wrong, and B) uncharacteristically insulting for Colibri. No, it was not an extreme of incivility, judged by the standards of the Board as a whole. But it was extremely uncivil for Colibri, which qualification has been excised from every subsequent quote, in order to show how much I had overreacted.
Perhaps remarking on Colibri’s turn from the drily academic, to the personal, was a mistake in the first place. But my intention in doing so was to try to get the discussion back on track, to change the subject back to the linguistic question that was more properly, according to GQ rules, the topic of the thread. That question had not yet been settled.
There’s no question that the interpretation that I offered in that discussion was open to debate. Even though I had a credible cite (not unimpeachable, and not beyond question, but credible), I was responded to as if I had just pulled the interpretation fresh out of my own ass. The interpretation wasn’t even mine; I was merely quoting a cite. Of course, that cite’s interpretation made sense to me, so I defended it.
But the chorus of, basically, “That’s dumb; everyone KNOWS Spanish is the official language of Spain,” rather than a mature attempt to discuss, let alone understand, the nuances and technicalities involved in the extremely limited context of the topic, still leaves me bewildered.
Almost none of what everyone who thinks they’re arguing with me has said is wrong, and I’ve made no claim that it is. Colibri quotes my cite, claiming it contradicts my interpretation, but glosses over the word “virtually,” though he bolds it. I have said over and over again that the context in which Castilian is the official language of Spain is only the narrowest, most pedantic, most technical, most official context; the context included in that word “virtually.” I never meant, despite the unclarity of my initial posts, to suggest that the context was any wider than that. I realized as I posted my first post that there was a lot more to the story, but I trusted that, in General Questions, the discussion would continue and the details would work themselves out. Perhaps I should have spent 6 or 8 hours and made sure that my first post preempted any and all possible arguments and anticipated any and all possible unclarities (not to mention hecklers). But I wasn’t submitting a thesis; I was jumping into a conversation. It’s unfortunate the conversation got so badly derailed, and then abruptly brought to a close, because if everyone had remained a grownup I feel pretty certain all the nuances and vagaries in this more-complicated-than-you’d-think topic would have been cleared up.
In any case, to repeat myself, I never meant to suggest that the proper name for the language spoken by 400 million people is Castilian; I understand that Castilian is “known as” Spanish to much of the world, that the two words are, in most instances, synonymous; and I never meant to suggest that Basque is linguistically Spanish, only that it is “one of the languages of Spain.” Nor did I ever claim that Spanish and Castilian are two different languages; only that they are two different names for the same language. I only meant that in the narrowest possible sense, in the technical definition of the phrase “official language,” the official name of the official language of the State of Spain according to the Constitution of Spain, is Castilian. Not the official language of the people, or of Spanish speakers elsewhere, or of anything else: only of the State of Spain, as specified in the Constitution.
Almost everything everyone else has said in that thread is also true, as it addresses wider contexts than the narrowest official context that I meant to address. Again, it’s only unfortunate Colibri had to inject personal motivations, and that I felt compelled to react; we spoiled a perfectly good thread on a fascinating subject.
The Constitution: Section 3.[ol][li]Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.[/li][li]The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Self-governing Communities in accordance with their Statutes.[/li][li]The richness of the different linguistic modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be specially respected and protected.[/ol] [/li]
Eight more cites: Cite: Language is the first element that shall be examined. Castilian is the national language of the entirety of Spain, as pointed out in the first clause of Article 3 of the 1978 Constitution, ‘Castilian is the official language of the state.’ “The use of the term ‘Castilian’, and not ‘Spanish’, makes an important statement acknowledging the existence of various ‘Spanish’ languages” (Mar-Molinero 337).
[PDF] There are four official languages in Spain: Castilian, Catalan, Basque and Galician. Presently, Castilian is official in the totality of the territory, and each of the three other languages shares co-officiality with Castilian in its own territory.
Cite: Castilian: Known around the world as “Spanish”, this is the official language of the country as it is stipulated in the Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.
Cite: Castilian, which is spoken in all the national territory, Equatorial Guinea, the former Spanish territory of Sahara, Central and South America (except Brazil and the Guyana) and parts of the Philippines, is the official and cultural language of some 400 million people the world over. Of these, nearly 350 million speak it as their mother tongue. These figures make the official language of the Spanish State the most widely spoken Romance language, an expressive instrument of a community which embraces two different worlds and which is spoken by people of different races.
Cite: The Spanish Constitution (1978)—which, incidentally, was published in the Boletín Oficial del Estado in Basque, Catalan and Galician as well as Castilian—establishes that Castilian is the official language of the State and requires all citizens to know it. . . . Catalonia’s Statute of Autonomy (1979) . . . proclaims that Catalan and Castilian are the two official languages. . . .
Cite: In the case of Spain, minority languages are widely spoken in five autonomous communities (Catalonia, the Basque country, Galicia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands). Under Article 3 of the Constitution (Castilian is the official language of the State and the other Spanish languages are also official in the respective autonomous Communities, in accordance with their statutes), the statutes of autonomy of those nationalities and regions enshrine the concept of equal official status of the languages. Autonomy statutes are of a dual nature since, although the peoples concerned participated directly in their preparation through their political representatives, the resulting legal text is in every case a rule having the status of State law and embodied in the legal order of the State. In effect, these texts provide that the regional language, along with Castilian, is the official language in the community and that any citizen is entitled to use either that language or Castilian in his relations with those public authorities whose jurisdiction is limited to the territory of the community concerned, whether they be regional or state bodies.
Cite: SPAIN: Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution states that: 1- Castilian is the official language of the state. It is the duty of all Spanish people to know it and it is their right to use it. 2-The other Spanish languages will also be official in the respective autonomous communities in conformity with their statuses. 3- The linguistic riches of Spain is a cultural heritage that should be respected and paid particular attention to. and Home rule status of the Generalitat of Catalunya 33.2: l16/1990 law special arrangements for the Val d’Aran, article 2: “The language of Aran, a variety of the Occitan and specific of the Val d’Aran, is official in the Val d’Aran. Catalan and Castilian are also official.”
And with all this, I’m not even saying I’m right; I’m only saying you had no right to dismissively and derisively call me flat out wrong, Colibri; nor to pit me for defending my cite. I understand and accept that there will be debate about how that word is translated, even in its constitutional context. (Although Google nets 117 results for the translation as"Castilian" and zero for “Spanish.”) But reasoned, mature debate; not “Sheesh. I don’t know why you can’t simply admit you were wrong rather than getting into all this nit-picking to try to find some shred of truth in what you said.”
(On preview: It’s interesting to see, with the linguistic debate that continues unabated in this thread—and all the necessary “nitpicks” that it elicits, each of which proves my point anew—that the GQ thread, if it hadn’t been closed, might well have found its way back on track. I doubt very much if any definitive conclusions would have been reached, but it would have continued to be an interesting discussion nonetheless. There’s obviously lots of room for discussion, and to definitively label someone “wrong,” as Colibri did, is very much out of place with a subject such as this one.)
As I said at the top, I’d be interested in discussing this further in a GQ or GD thread, but I’m not going to participate further in this Pit thread, and its inevitable, “Yuh, but yer dum cuz you like Showgirls.”
You are, of course, correct on the single-L spelling. I got that info. from a remarkable article on Galego by a linguistic-cultural promotional group, so it may well be somewhat, well, an overstressing of a truth. They gave a few examples but stated it as a generalization. I’ll try to run that down again and post a link.