Little girls and princesses. A real menace or harmless fun?

[Deeg]

@Lamia

…but even adults do not possess a foolproof ability to distinguish between truth and fiction. That’s why people fall for urban legends.

And Dan Brown.

[Nava]

@Morwen Edhelwen

It’s also called Donkeyskin.

Thank you, I should remember the name but for some reason never can.

[Malthus]

@Lamia

Your son can presumably distinguish between obvious fantasy (e.g. Harry Potter flying on his broom) and reality, but even adults do not possess a foolproof ability to distinguish between truth and fiction. That’s why people fall for urban legends. There are plenty of adults who believe all kinds of inaccurate things about law enforcement and the justice system based on what they’ve seen in movies and on TV, and that’s an area where it could potentially be very important to know the truth about how things work in real life.

In which category would you put the “being a princess” fantasy - obvious fantasy, or something that may or may not be true, like an urban legend or details about law enforcement?

To me, the answer is pretty obvious - while in fact princesses really do exist, to most kids, they are in the same category as knights in shining armour, pirates, and dragons - that is, things which may have been historical (armoured knights), still exist in some places (pirates) or may be wholly fiction (dragons) but which, in this day and place, are very obviously “fantasy” as far as the kid is concerned. My kid does not actually expect to encounter a real knight, pirate, dragon or princess when walking to school.

I am actually kind of astonished that the point is apparently controversial.

[Malthus]

@ITR_champion

The research that I’ve read focuses on children ages 6 and under. I’d agree that at more advanced ages, children start distinguishing between fantasy and reality, but it’s a process that goes on for a long time, and as Lamia said, even adults aren’t perfect in this regard.

When I was in second or third grade, I read a number of books on UFOs, alien abductions, the Bermuda Triangle, and stuff of that sort. At the time it never occurred to me to question that what was in the books was true. I might, by that time, have been fully aware that something like The Hobbit was fantasy, but plainly I still had a long way to go before thinking critically about all the material I encountered.

Whether kids in third grade have perfect critical thinking skills isn’t the issue. Whether they are likely to believe they can actually become princes or princesses is.

I submit that such stuff is more akin to actually believing The Hobbit is literally true, than believing in stuff like UFOs. Again, I’m surprised this is controversial.

Obviously, there is a continuum of fantasy - from stuff that is very obviously fantasy and is marketed as such (Harry Potter, the Hobbit, princesses) through all sorts of stuff marketed in some cases as a deliberate fraud, though to things where even those peddling it may believe in its literal truth. I agree that teaching kids the skills to think critically about what they are told is important. I don’t agree for one second that somehow preventing kids from having access to obvious fantasy is going in any way to help them learn those skills.

[Lamia]

@Malthus

In which category would you put the “being a princess” fantasy - obvious fantasy, or something that may or may not be true, like an urban legend or details about law enforcement?

There was a highly publicized case a couple of years ago of a pretty young woman who was not of noble birth marrying a handsome prince and becoming a princess. Her name was Kate Middleton, you may have heard of her.

To me, the answer is pretty obvious - while in fact princesses really do exist, to most kids, they are in the same category as knights in shining armour, pirates, and dragons - that is, things which may have been historical (armoured knights), still exist in some places (pirates) or may be wholly fiction (dragons) but which, in this day and place, are very obviously “fantasy” as far as the kid is concerned. My kid does not actually expect to encounter a real knight, pirate, dragon or princess when walking to school.

I am actually kind of astonished that the point is apparently controversial.

I really don’t know what point it is that you’re trying to make here. You expressed doubt as to ITR champion’s claim that children have difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality. I added that not only children but adults have difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality. I’m astonished that you consider THAT controversial, given that the Straight Dope column often debunks urban legends believed by adults.

[Malthus]

@Lamia

There was a highly publicized case a couple of years ago of a pretty young woman who was not of noble birth marrying a handsome prince and becoming a princess. Her name was Kate Middleton, you may have heard of her.

Yes, I know, there are real princesses. There are also real pirates - just sail around Somalia.

Neither are likely to be encountered by your average 8 year old girl, are they? In their lives, their chances of actually becoming a real-life princess, pirate, or knight are pretty well zero.

I really don’t know what point it is that you’re trying to make here. You expressed doubt as to ITR champion’s claim that children have difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality. I added that not only children but adults have difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality. I’m astonished that you consider THAT controversial, given that the Straight Dope column often debunks urban legends believed by adults.

Checks thread

You do realize what the topic under discussion is? It is whether the “princess fantasy” is harmful for little girls.

My answer is that the girls we are talking about are old enough to know the difference between that particular fantasy and reality.

Not whether kids, or indeed people in general, have critical thinking skills necessary to always and in every case tell the difference between every possible sort of fantasy and reality - but whether kids, of the age to care about princesses, can tell.

I say they can - that they do not need to be “protected”.

[Lamia]

@Malthus

You do realize what the topic under discussion is? It is whether the “princess fantasy” is harmful for little girls.

If you object to the change in topic then maybe you should take it up with the guy who posted this:

@Malthus

My 8 year old boy can definitely tell the difference between fantasy and reality, in my opinion. If you claim he can’t, all I can say is - cite?

because that’s what I was responding to.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

I gave my wife this princess on a unicorn t-shirt for Christmas.

Our four-year-old certainly encounters princess stories. I have some pretty strong antipathy toward royalty, tending to think of them as early prototypes of the Mafia, so I’m not crazy about stories that imagine being the daughter of a monarch; but I try to keep that in check as my daughter imagines things, doing little more than to remind her of what the difference is between fantasy and reality.

I also make sure she’s got plenty of models of what it might mean to be a girl or woman. Yeah, she’s got this loathsome Princess Alphabet book that someone gave her (I refuse to read it on the rare occasions she asks, not because I worry about her being irreparably harmed but because I personally dislike reading it, and she’ll gladly accept a different book that I don’t mind so much). She’s also got some chintzy fairy princess books she likes. She’s also got The Evolution of Calpurnia Tate, a hilarious book about an 11-year-old Texan girl in 1899 who becomes fascinated by Darwin and naturalism (and no, it’s not tedious like it sounds, it’s a Newbery-winning awesome book), and she’s got 101 Dalmatians, and a plethora of books about her favorite obsession, ocean animals. I figure if she’s got a variety of subjects and role models to choose from, she’s fine.

Kids may not be perfect at distinguishing fantasy from reality, but they can learn, and they can think about it. Comparing the studies of “monster in a box” on preschoolers to a third grader believing in UFOs is unfair, though. Heck, ITR, you’re an adult, and you STILL believe in some things that I consider fantasy :). I’ve talked with my school’s librarian about how books on UFOs and Bigfoot are classified under nonfiction, and how this is misleading to kids; she agrees, but tells me to take it up with the Dewey Decimal System.

[Dangerosa]

What I was getting at in the beginning of this thread is that if your career aspiration is to be a real princess - that takes some work. Those women tend to be pretty accomplished. And the role is not easy. I’m raising my daughter (and son) to do something other than “marry well”- but I’m also raising my son to have a plan that doesn’t involve professional baseball and my daughter to have a career goal other than professional acting.

Yes there are real princesses - and choosing that as a career goal is not harmful - not likely, but not any more harmful than the other “one in a million” professional dreams children have. How many of us wanted to be astronauts? Or rock stars?

Yes, there are fantasy princesses - and the princess fantasy for a little girl is no more harmful than little boys playing ninja and pirate.

Are their women who grow up as spoiled brats - yep. Is the “princess industry” to blame - I doubt it. It takes more than watching Little Mermaid a hundred times, running around in a tiara when you are six, and painting your room pink to turn into a spoiled brat.