Hmm, I’ll start this here in IMHO, but based on the debate I just endured with my ex-wife I guess it could end up in GD. We’ll see. Mods may move it as they see fit, obviously.
My daughter is nearly six years old. Her mother and I have been divorced for over three years. When we were married we disagreed about fostering a belief in Santa Claus, but I acquiesced and since the divorce have remained neutral with regards to Ol’ St. Nick.
However, throughout my daughter’s life I’ve presented the fairy tales we read and the movies we watch as make-believe, and I’ve until now had no indication her mother was doing it differently. It’s now come to light that her mother has been instilling and fostering a belief in the Disney princesses as real. I think this is ridiculous. I can begrudgingly look the other way on Santa Claus based on his status as a cultural tradition, but the Disney princesses?
Am I overreacting? Or is putting Cinderella and Ariel and Belle and Sleeping Beauty (etc. etc.) in the same class as Santa Claus just setting the kid up for problems down the road?
It depends on the level of reality. Even a six year old knows what’s real, but it’s also fun to pretend things are real, even when you know they aren’t.
It’s when you lose the separation that you have trouble. Cinderella isn’t real, but there’s no reason why her story couldn’t be real. Though the “rescue” part of traditional fairy tales I’m not happy with.
Fairy tales are good and kids need to hear stories. It helps them develop imagination. The world is pretty tough for them and they need to know when they get sad or in a place where they can’t cope, they can close their eyes and lose themselves in make believe world.
For instance, when I was little I had a dog. And when my mum would scold me, I’d take the dog and go outside in the backyard and explain to him exactly why my mother was so unfair to me and how unreasonable she was. And the dog always agreed with me that my mother clearly was wrong and I was the good one.
Of course I knew that wasn’t real, but it was nice to believe it anyway.
And I think you need to find out the level of belief. It’s like going to a fun house as an adult. You know it’s fake, but it’s more fun to believe.
The topic came up because my daughter was asking me questions about whether the princesses were real. I was originally perplexed by the question because I’d believed she’d had this down a year ago, though now I know why she still has questions. I answered honestly, telling her that there are real princesses (Remember the pictures of the royal wedding?), but that the stories and princesses in the movies we watch are make-believe and pretend. But it sure is fun to pretend, isn’t it? She agreed and we went on.
I’ve since found out that when she told her mother that I said the princesses were pretend, her mother “repaired the damage” by telling her that she must have misunderstood me. She then explained that, yes, the cartoons are just cartoons, but that the real live Cinderella and all the other Disney princesses live in Disney World.
I am all for supporting an active imagination, I had a doozy myself, but getting in the way of the child figuring out what’s real and what’s not seems very wrong to me.
At this age, no. There’s a certain age where being too logic with kids is kind of wasting time. There’s certain concepts they can’t grasp. Besides, I think it’s worse for you to be saying one thing and mom another. I think you two need to get on the same page. I think that’s the bigger issue at the moment.
Maybe you could be the one to read her stories where girls are adventurous and independent, as a sort of foil for all of the Disney princess stuff. There’s nothing wrong with Disney, but I think young girls can really benefit from the sort of story where they can imagine themselves doing amazing things rather than sitting around looking pretty and waiting for a prince.
If you introduce different kinds of stories it could open up discussion about the kind of fun and exciting things that are real and the kind of things that are a fantasy. I think what her mother is doing is wrong, but it doesn’t sound like she’s going to give up telling your daughter the stuff is real.
It makes no sense to me. After all, we do want to give our children the tools they need to get through life. Sending a child into kindergarten or first grade with a head full of made up fantasy might not be the most effective way to do that.
I don’t know if it’s setting her up for problems down the road, but it’s surely bizarre. I just asked my 16-year-old daughter if she’s ever heard of anything like that, and she said, “No, who the hell does that??”
Your ex doesn’t sound like she is going to back down. I definitely think the extent to which it’s being taken is unhealthy- especially the “real live Disney princesses in Disney World” part- but perhaps the suggestion above mine about making an effort to provide a good range of contrasting stories is best, as it will be harder for your co-parent to “undo”.
My sole caution: many of the stories masquerading as showing an “adventurous, independent” woman derail themselves off that track or carry contrary implications the authors either snuck in or overlooked. I’m not saying the plucky heroine can’t fall in love with a plucky hero, but there’s a line to be drawn somewhere.
On the other hand, it’s a great opening for telling the daughter that ex-wife will surely want to take her to meet the princesses very soon…! That might induce a sense of realism.
Some great man said that children don’t need fairy tales for the dragon, they need it for Saint George to slay it. I think it’s a little weird, but as others have said, read her some other stories. Mulan’s story is better - she still gets a handsome prince, but she did not just sit at home seeking one, but went out to save her father’s honor and ended up saving all of Imperial China!
That was renowned child psychologist Bruno Bettelheim, who said (paraphrased): Fairy tales don’t tell kids that monsters exist; kids know that monsters exist already; fairy tales tell kids that monsters can be killed.
I second the exposure to other stories - the original Mulan, not the Disney version; different varieties of Cinderella (there’s a wonderful live-action movie from Czech called “Three hazelnuts for Cinderella” that shows a stronger and independent Cinderella than Disney - though I don’t know if it has been translated into English); the original Pocahontas story (the Native Americans have a lot of criticism about the way Disney treats it!), translations of Grimm’s fairy tales to compare with Mother Goose; Native American and Chinese fairy tales for different traditions of stories…
Also anime: She-Ra at least does something besides waiting for Prince Charming; Shrek is of course wonderful deconstruction of Disney!
And this can lead to good discussions also - they don’t have to be quite logical, or fully sink in, just do them regularly:
What if I (= the daughter) were a princess for one day, one week, what would I do? Eat ice-cream all day, ride a pony, … let her imagination run wild with a bit of daydreaming (as long as it’s not too much, it’s not a problem)
How do real princesses today live? (As antidote), looking not only at the UK royal family, but also the Scandinavian monarchies, and some smaller ones in Asia. If she’s a bit older, you could point out the pressure on the Japanese family to produce boy heirs despite biology and despite “descending” from a female sungodess.
What about non-fiction? There are children’s books written about real-life women and girls who did great things. Here’sone about Harriet Tubman for ages 4-8; this one’s for older readers but you could read it to her, and it has great pictures. About courageous Kate Shelley. Here’s one about Clara Barton for ages 4-8. Plucky heroines all. How can your ex object?
They do live in Disney World. I once had my picture taken with Belle from Beauty and the Beast, my favorite, and I’ve met Cinderella and many of the other princesses.
Yeah, I’d say you handled it perfectly, and your ex is a nut, or (to be charitable) terrified that your daugher is growing up too fast or something. Kids can know they’re engaging in make believe, but still enjoy the hell out of themselves. All my daughters love interacting with the characters at StoryLand (basically an amusement park geared towards kids 9 & under), even though the older two are completely aware they’re just park workers in costumes.
My daughter has decided that when we go to Disneyworld next week, we are only meeting people dressed up as the princesses, Mickey Mouse, etc. The real * ones live in Disneyland*! I think she is pretty smart for a five year-old but sometimes she makes me go :dubious: Like when she saw a clip of the Lion King show at Disneyworld and thought they had a real talking lion.
Personally I wouldn’t get too worked up about a six year old thinking the princesses are real, although I think it is kind of odd that mom is actively promoting it, rather than just indulging some harmless fantasies.
Great thoughts all, thanks. I definitely do try to provide some stories that don’t follow the stereotypical Disney path. The idea to read some alternative versions of the Cinderella story is a great one. Disney certainly didn’t come up with the tale.
I guess to clarify my point, I have zero problem with a kid believing in fairy tales in their unique and childish ways. But when one is beginning to grasp the boundries and differences between real life and fantasy it seems really counterproductive to create roadblocks in that path.
Yeah, she won’t budge, and since I refuse to actively redirect my daughter’s natural progression towards figuring this stuff out this is going to end up being another Santa Claus - Any questions I get from my daughter are replied to with a question of my own: “I don’t know Honey, that’s a great question. What do you think?”
So do the Three Little Pigs, the Big Bad Wolf, and C-3P0 and R2-D2, but when I asked the ex if we should be fostering belief in those characters I was told that was simply foolish.
Heh, she did use that as one of her points. But on the flip side, she lets the girl watch Hannah Montana and listen to Brittney Spears. So, what do I know? Given the current direction I think at some point my daughter is going to know the truth for herself and is probably going to be the one correcting her mother. What a silly situation for my ex to put herself in.
I would stick to my guns on this one. Too many people already believe nonsense. About time to separate the real from the fiction.
I still remember when my 6 yo daughter complained one morning that the tooth fairy had not visited the night before. Why complain to me?, I asked. I will never forget the look I got from her. When she was four she had her own imaginary kingdom and even went a little ways to creating a language for it (gulemorg = good morning) but she damned well knew it was imaginary.
Not really. She’ll figure it out on her own as she gets older. Even with the huge conspiracy the entire country engages in to keep the truth about Santa hidden from little kids, no one makes it to high school still believing in Santa.
Adults who can’t separate fantasy from reality are that way because they’re suffering from some profound mental disturbance, not because they never learned how to tell the difference when they were kids.