"Live a good life", with or without Gods- quote of Marcus Aurelius

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
– Marcus Aurelius

This pretty much sums up my philosophy of life. For people who disagree, what’s your best shot at convincing me I’m wrong?

The assumption that any god who cares about your level of devotion is fundamentally unjust seems like something that many would take exception to.

(Some) Christians believe in salvation by “faith alone” – which is distinguished from “works.”

But I’m not sure whether prayer, worship, etc., would come under the heading of “faith” or “works.”

FWIW, I read somewhere on the backwaters of the internet that M.A. never said such a thing. It’s a fake attribution. I recall there being enough links to convince me that the claim’s true, but I’ll be damned if I can find it all now. It seems like Marcus started getting a lot of internet cred right after Gladiator came out.

Take it with a grain of salt, ‘s all I’m sayin’.

It’s like the anti-Pascal.

Can’t seem to find it on Wikiquote. Though there is some cool stuff there –

And then some of it is to a modern mind kinda WTF?! :confused:

Whether or not M.A. said it, I still like the quote. The question in my OP still stands, whoever said the quote.

The issue isn’t caring about devotion per se; it’s caring more about devotion than about actual moral conduct.

We recognize that a mere human who cares more about how much somebody sucks up than about how they behave is a shallow jackass; how much more would the same principle apply to a supposed god?

cckerberos- The objections are what I’m interested in! Do you object? If so, why? Can you convince me I’m wrong?

What? Gods Need Prayer Badly.

Here’s the closest quote by him I can find:

So what that quote is saying is, "What ever you do, do it as if you may die the next moment. But, don’t be afraid of death, because if there are gods, they’ll take care of you, and if there aren’t, there’s no point in living. But there are gods, and they’ve made it possible for you to act in such a way to avoid bad stuff happening to you. And, if there’s anything bad that may happen to you in the next life/afterlife, they’ll make it possible for you to act in such a way as to avoid that too.

Philosophers from the beginning had been baffled by the purported spiritual value of ritual. From the first book of The Republic, by Plato:

For all his attention to right and wrong, Cephalus seems to think that the best way to curry favor with the gods is to give them their due sacrifices; and the older he grows, the more important this seems.

It was always a challenge, anyway, for any Greco-Roman philosopher to be traditionally pious. A philosopher noticed what the average worshipper would not, namely, that the Greek gods* are very bad role-models. They act just like half-civilized Bronze Age royalty would act if they had supernatural powers. They are vain, greedy, jealous, lecherous, wrathful, petty, spiteful and vindictive. They did not even create the universe, they just took it over after murdering their (murderous) parents.
*Regarding Roman gods there was little actual mythology, save that borrowed from the Greek.

Ignoring the part about whether he actually said it, my response is, what exactly does it mean to live a good life? That could have any number of meanings depending upon who you ask, and they could be contradictory. I suppose that most would imply that it means to live a moral and just life, but even certain parts of those concepts are not universal.

That said, I am a theist myself, but I am also generally against ritual, especially that ritual which was clearly derived through tradition. Moreso, a lot of the ritual in religion seems to either be derived through tradition where the initial purpose was either a basic celebration or simply a good idea (eg, passover or sabbath respectively). I don’t personally believe in hell, but I’ve specifically always had issue with the idea that one can live as moral a life as possible, but never had a real opportunity to know God, and he’d be damned, but another man might lead a terrible life and forsake numerous opportunities, but have a deathbed confession, and he’d be saved.

I digress, but it seems to me that it sort of does actually have a religious turn, in that I believe that one of the primary purposes of religion, even if it has gotten away from that for a number of people, is to try to determine how to live a good, moral, and just life, and it seems to me that that quote simply says that promise of reward, threat of punishment, or even ultimate meaninglessness should not be motivational factors to which living a good life is a means, but that living a good life is an end unto itself.

And, by the same token, it was not until the 18th-Century Enlightenment that thinkers began daring to conceive and pose moral criticisms of the (often fierce) deeds of God as recorded in the Bible. And we know where that led . . .

My objection is that this seems to assume that “a good life” is going to be defined the same in the three scenarios given, (and further that it’s going to be defined the same by all people who think this way.) I don’t believe that’s the case.

See?..

This could easily mean, “he killed everyone in the next village, brought back their stuff, and made our lives better. We have a better standard of living, less competition and can increase our tribe. He’s a hero and will be remembered through the ages.”

The only way that “living a good life” would be the same for you in each scenario is if you live each scenario as if: “…there are gods and they are just…” But, once again someone else will have a different definition of a just god, and that will change what they think is a good life. So, what use is this philosophy if it can’t come up with the same code to live by for different people, and can’t even come up with the same code for any one person in the different given situations?

I have to admit that I’m suspicious about the authenticity of the quote, too. I’ve read the Meditations and don’t recall this being in there (I used one of the quotes from the Meditations as an epigraph for my Ph.D. thesis. In Physics. If Aurelius said or wrote this, you’d expect it to be in the Meditations). We’ve had discussions about spurious quotes from famous people many times on this Board before.

I’m fine with it, and apparently Jesus is too given the good Samaritan parable.

Interestingly, I’m an atheist who is generally FOR ritual. Rules are what gives meaning to life.

Interesting statement, as I consider myself a non-religious theist, and I find that rules are what destroys meaning to life.