Given that all US Americans live on land that used to belong to Indians or Native Americans ( except for the reservations ), and that they were treated extremely badly ( no need to go into all that here- it’s well known ), do US Americans feel badly about living and prospering on land that was obtained in such a harsh way?
I notice that the US courts recently recognised that the Black Hills still belong to the tribes, but refused to give it back to them, so they are still being treated badly.
Me, personally? No as none of my family was here when the, um, exchanges were made. At the time my people were mostly Ukrainian serfs. As far as I can tell, the Englishers and the Spanish stole this land fair and square.
I doubt there is an acre of habitable land in the world which has not at some time in the past been unfairly taken from its inhabitants and colonized by another people.
It is not the natives fault that their ancestors’ land was stolen. But I am also not responsible for the fecundity of my ancestors. If we reverted all the lands to the tribes, they would be richer beyond most anyone’s dreams with the rest of the North Americans either forced to emigrate or reduced to a level of poverty worse than that facing many tribes today.
Furthermore, the tribes had not lived on one location forever or even for millennia. Their ancestral homelands are usually just where they happened to be when they first passed into recorded history. It was not set in stone forever going backward, and the “title” to the land often passed from one tribe to another through violence.
That said, we should strive to treat present-day people fairly, and also treat the present-day Indian nations fairly. But with regards to land, it’s a similar situation to North Ireland and Ireland. On the one hand, no one thinks it is not geographically part of Ireland and is considered by the Irish nation as part of its patrimony. On the other hand, many people in Northern Ireland feel differently about it.
I imagine for them, even if you believe that Ireland is for the Irish, that you would have to feel sympathy for those who were born in Ulster and consider it their home, in more than a theoretical way: in a deep seated nostalgic patriotic way. It’s like Dreamers who know no homeland but America but then are told that they are illegal aliens. As much as I support enforcement of immigration, I sympathise with those who are thoroughly American in every way except on paper and we should do our best to treat them fairly as well.
Not all of the land was stolen. The town where I grew up is on land purchased by someone from the local tribe.
Why should anyone alive today feel bad over the fact that some of the genes in their bodies may have been copied from some of the genes in the bodies of people who stole land from some people whose genes may have been copied into some other people alive today?
First, this is grossly oversimplified. There are more Native Americans alive today than at any previous point in history. Just as with everybody else in the Americas, all that ancestry is pretty mixed, but it’s there. Most don’t live on reservations or anything like a traditional lifestyle, but then I could say the same about every other ethnic group which landed here.
It’s also not accurate even insofar as it goes. Some groups were treated very harshly. Others assimilated. Some were nearly destroyed and others found prosperity. Their cultures have had, and continue to have, ongoing effects even in the modern world.
I am unclear if you are foreign or just being odd, but I’ll take the quesiton seriously. Basically, all land since forever has been acquired in that harsh way. Nobody’s hands are clean if you want to honestly look at it. The difference is that we acknowledge it; no more and no less. Americans are not proud of it, but we do not feel any guilt over it.
I am not sure what you are discussing here.
I disagree with the OP, but I have to say that’s a bit glib. The obvious reason they might feel guilty is that they inherited the “stolen” land as well as the genes.
I suppose that many Americans feel bad about the various ugly, unfair, and illegitimate uses of power and force that have occurred throughout our history, both by our immediate ancestors and by others around the world. Some totally wash their hands of the whole mess (“I’m not responsible,” “it was in the past,” “it’s just genes,” etc.) and others may express a greater degree of concern by engaging in various forms of social justice activity. Others may do both. But, it’s pretty hard to ask a general question referring to “all US Americans,” and get a definitive answer. Maybe the OP is just trying to come to terms with the frustrations surrounding the residue of others’ questionable ethics and the way to deal with the perception of personal responsibility for it.
Missed the “some” and “may” bits?
Since this is asking about people’s feelings, it’s better suited to IMHO than GQ.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Not sure what you’re trying to say. You asked why “anyone” should feel bad about it; the answer is that they may have inherited some stolen property and money from their ancestors.
My Irish and German ancestors came to New York centuries after the native inhabitants had been displaced by the Dutch. As has been said, those native inhabitants no doubt displaced others who had been there before them. While I might regret historical injustices, I certainly don’t feel any personal responsibility for them.
My Irish Catholic ancestors came to the US during the Great Famine and its aftermath. They no doubt had had their land taken from them by the English, possibly around the same time the Indians of New York were having their land taken by the Dutch. Again, I might feel some resentment about historical injustices, but that doesn’t really have any influence on how I feel about people today.
Did the person they “bought” it from have legal title to it? If not, was there consensus among the tribe members for this “sale”?
Like someone else mentioned above, I’ve often considered, since my parents arrived in the 1950’s that I’m not responsible for a number of things that happened in the 1600’s to 1950’s. People with issues with occurrences in that time period may disagree, and that’s fine. But I’m just going to humor/ignore them, they have to accept that.
Lately, I’ve had another point of view. I was born, here – on the planet Earth. I’m part of the process of evolution of simpler lifeforms (or I the latest in a line of created humans on a created planet by a Creator – roll with me – you see the conclusion follows even if you believe this is literally true) same as the rest of the human race. An old prayer would say, “I have a right to be here, same as the trees and the flowers” Had I been born tens of thousands of years ago, it might have been part of the group that left Asia for the Americas by foot, dog sled or canoe, depending. I have as much right to the resources of this planet as anyone else. The minerals in my body are the same stardust that makes up everything else on this planet, and I’m halfway there to giving them all back to where I got them, when I die and return them to the only source obligated to them – the Earth.
'Tho I suppose I could be a jerk about it and have my cremains shot into space. But they’d be back, sooner or later.
Was there a legal entity able to provide title?
Was there a representative gnt available to give consensus?
Did that group of humans ask if the previous occupants to sell the land? Or did they just take it?
Personally, I make sure to go into the basement every night and berate myself for ten straight minutes for all of the failings of myself, my race, and my ancestors.
Sorry.
I am 1/8th Native American and 7/8th English/Scottish/Scots-Irish (aka the people who “stole” the land from the Native Americans). Can someone tell me how much land I get under each of the proposed alternatives so I can decide which one I favor? Please also include the general formula for determining this because many of my friends and family are also part Native American. Am I supposed to simultaneously hate and feel sorry for myself because of this travesty? Thanks in advance.
I don’t care what my ancestors did or to whom or who did what to them or whatever. The past is over and none of the parties involved are currently alive. I do find it upsetting that anyone thinks I ought to feel guilty for existing, and I find the worship of the indigenous occupants of this particular land mass tiresome.
Yeah, a lot of land was bought or ceded by treaty.
One of my ancestors bought his land from the locals twice. After he had settled for a while another tribe claimed his land was really theirs and the others had no right to sell it. After some negotiations, he paid them off to keep the peace. Hardly anything to be guilty about there, almost 400 years later.
One of Mrs. FtG’s ancestors got a claim on land bought from the locals. Cleared it, planted fruit trees, made a go of for several years. Then there was a more official treaty, which included a reservation being started, on the ancestor’s land. He had to give it up. There’s a casino there now. Who should feel guilty here?
Plus things were hardly static among the natives prior to the Europeans showing up. The Cheyenne controlled the Black Hills long before the Lakota even saw them. The Lakota took control of the area around 1776 (!).
Do the Lakota feel guilty about this?
Should the Black Hills be given back to the Cheyenne? The Lakota? Or maybe the Hidatsa?
OTOH, not all that hard to find examples of actual stolen land. Some compensation (inflation-adjusted original value plus some interest) here and there is fine by me. But turning over most of N. Georgia to the Cherokee just isn’t practical. (Plus they moved into the area only after DeSoto’s guys nearly wiped out the previous people. So those groups are doubly screwed.)
Basically, no. AIUI not even the Indians claimed to own the land. So nobody owned it. Until European settlers came in, and then somebody owned it.
It’s not like the Indians didn’t conquer each other and take each other’s land, so they didn’t really have any better claim to the land than I do now.
Excrement occurs.
Regards,
Shodan