Logicians: What (if anything) is wrong with this argument? Blue-eyed islanders

A professor of mine said that he stopped giving this problem, because a logician friend of his said there was something wrong with the solution. However, he never found out from his friend what the flaw was.

The problem is rather well-known. There are several different versions; I will give a cleaner version. There is an island of savages, some who have brown eyes and some who have blue eyes. It is tribal law that anyone who discovers that he has blue eyes must kill himself on the next sunrise. The blue-eyed islanders have managed to live so far, because to speak of eye color is taboo, and there are no mirrors or reflective surfaces of any kind on this island (assume the water is too murky). One day, the entire tribe is congregating about an infallible oracle, and the oracle announces, “There is at least one blue-eyed person on this island.” The question is, What happens?

The standard answer is that if there are n blue-eyed islanders, they all kill themselves on the nth day after the oracle’s announcement. The argument is as follows. Suppose there is 1 blue-eyed islander. After the oracle makes his announcement, this person knows that he must have blue eyes, since he sees that everyone else has brown eyes. He therefore kills himself the next day. Now, suppose there are n+1 blue-eyed islanders, and assume as the inductive hypothesis that if there are n blue-eyed islanders, they all kill themselves on the nth day. Each blue-eyed islander sees n people with blue eyes. He reasons that if he himself does not have blue eyes, these n people will kill themselves on the nth day. When this does not happen, he concludes that he must also have blue eyes, and kills himself the next day. Therefore, all n+1 blue-eyed islanders kill themselves on the (n+1)th day.

Is this argument flawed? If so, what is the flaw?

Here are some thoughts.

A. How do you know that on the (n+1)th day there are still n+1 blue-eyed islanders remaining? Maybe, some of them islanders killed themselves earlier, because they discovered they had blue eyes by an argument you have not thought of. The inductive hypothesis says that if there n blue-eyed islanders, they all kill themselves on the nth day. It does not say what happens if the number of blue-eyed islanders is more than n; it might be possible that some of them kill themselves earlier. Is this an essential flaw? Or can you get around it by inducing on two statements at once. For example,

(1) If there are n blue-eyed islanders, they will all kill themselves on the nth day.
(2) If there are more than n blue-eyed islanders, no one will commit suicide on any day up to and including the nth.

B. What new information does the oracle give? If there are 2 blue-eyed islanders, they each know that there is at least one blue-eyed person. You may say, “But they don’t know that the other knows that there is at least one.” OK, so consider the case where there are 3 blue-eyed islanders, Alice, Bob, and Charlie. Alice knows that there is at least one blue-eyed islander, and she knows that Bob and Charlie know too. Then, you reply, “But Alice doesn’t know that Bob knows that Charlie knows.” Continuing in this fashion, in the general case, the oracle’s announcement allows each blue-eyed islander to conclude chains of “I know that he knows that he knows . . . that there is at least one blue-eyed person.”

However, in and of itself, the oracle’s statment doesn’t tell anyone anything that he did not already know. It is the fact that he announced it publically that is important. So by publically announcing information that everyone already knows, he provides new information. Doesn’t that seem strange?

C. Perhaps, there is nothing wrong with the argument, but maybe it can’t be translated into first-order logic; maybe some other type of logic is needed.

Anyone with expert knowledge of logic care to comment on this?

We dealt with this fairly recently in terms of monks with a “plague”. Search the fora.

Unless I am misunderstand, only if there is one blue-eyed islander will this person kill themselves. By looking around at all the other islanders, and seeing their eyes are brown, as he believes the oracle is infallible, this person will kill themselves. However, if there are 2 or more blue-eyed islanders, how could the other blue-eyed islander(s) know that they have blue eyes?

Guests cannot search.

The OP is a guest and can’t search. The thread in question is Game Theory: Tough Puzzle.

Savages? That’s the ‘clean’ version? You are… literally… The Man.

The dirty version involves adultery, the murder of spouses, and burning a missionary at the stake.

[QUOTE=moriah]
The OP is a guest and can’t search. The thread in question is Game Theory: Tough Puzzle.
I stand corrected. And, the answer to this is:

The oracle gives the new information that there is at least one blue-eyed person. Because the taboo prevents anyone from saying there is at at least one blue-eyed person, in the scenario that there is one blue-eyed person he could have never realized he is blue-eyed without the oracle revealing it to him.

Correct me if I am wrong, (and I very well could be) but this sounds like a variation of the pop quiz logic problem.

"The professor for class Logic 315 says on Friday: “We’re going to have a surprise quiz next week, but I’m not telling you what day… if you can figure out what day it will be on, I’ll cancel the quiz.”

The students get together and decide that the quiz can’t be on Friday, as if the quiz doesn’t happen by Thursday, it’ll be obvious the quiz is on Friday. Similarly, the quiz can’t be on Thursday, because we know it won’t be on Friday, and if the quiz doesn’t happen by Wednesday, it’ll be obvious it’s on Thursday (because it can’t be on Friday). Same thing for Wednesday, Tuesday and Monday. So it can’t be on ANY day, so there’s no quiz next week!"

They tell the professor, who smiles and says, “Well, nice to see you’re thinking about it.”

On Tuesday, the professor gives the quiz, totally unexpected!"

What’s the flaw in the students’ thinking?

We talked about this problem here before but I am having trouble finding it.

[QUOTE=moriah]
The OP is a guest and can’t search. The thread in question is Game Theory: Tough Puzzle.

I’ve glanced through the linked thread. Correct me if I am wrong, but the issue there was that the original question did not include an oracle.

That is a variation of the Unexpected Hanging Paradox. I don’t think it is the same thing.

Yes, in the scenario with 1 blue-eyed islander, the oracle provides new information to him. If there are 2 or more blue-eyed islanders, each knows there is at least one, because he can see the eyes of the other blue-eyed person. Please read part B again.

I believe you have a point, and this will make a difference.

Unfortunately the phrasing kills the paradox. It should be, “you won’t know when”. To say that if you can figure it out means it will be cancelled just means that if it were planned for Friday it would be cancelled. It could easily be on any other day given the phrasing in question.

I didn’t read that post too carefully. Regardless, I would rather not get a discussion into the Unexpected Hanging Paradox (unless it applies to the current problem). I’ve seen that discussed elsewhere at length.

However, I have never seen a discussion about a possible flaw in the current problem. I’ve seen it discussed elsewhere, but I have only heard about the flaw from my professor.

We discussed the unexpected hanging paradox here.

But the fact is that to speak of eye color is taboo is an issue. I presume that means not only can they not say “that person is blue-eyed”, but also “I observe that at least one of us is blue-eyed.” Let’s assume there are 3 blue-eyed people. But none of these 3 can know that their eyes are blue. How without the oracle speaking can the blue-eyed people in this scenario know after 3 days to kill themselves? The oracle starts the clock ticking for the triple suicide of the blue-eyed islanders 3 days later. No oracle, and the clock never start to tick, and the blue-eyed islanders never kill themselves.

Yes, that is all correct. But consider the statement, “There is at least one blue-eyed person,” in and of itself. Suppose there are 3 blue-eyed people. Each not only knows that there is at least one, he knows that there are at least two.

If instead of announcing the statement, suppose the oracle communicated telepathically with each person, but no one is aware that the oracle told anyone else. Then, nothing would happen. The public nature of the announcement is important.

As you’ve stated it, there is a loophole in the logic. As Chronos pointed out in this post in the other thread, you need to make sure of a few more things:

[ul]
[li]The islanders don’t just kill themselves willy-nilly once they realize they have blue eyes; instead, they must throw themselves into the volcano at exactly the stroke of midnight on the day they realize it. Otherwise, in the two-islander case, we could have something like the following: Islander A comes to the horrifying realization (under the given logic) that he has blue eyes, and immediately offs himself. Islander B then says to himself, “It’s consistent with the known facts that Islander A took a couple of days to figure out that he was the only one with blue eyes on the island — he was always a little slow. So I don’t know whether or not I have blue eyes, so I won’t kill myself.” Also, there should be some signal that an islander has killed herself; maybe the volcano sends out a shower of lava whenever somebody jumps into it.[/li][li]Similarly, the islanders must all know that every other islander is capable of working out this solution within 24 hours (specifically, the fact that the lower limit on the number of blue-eyed people increases by one each day.) Otherwise, in the two-islander case, you could have neither guy kill himself, each one wondering when the other poor, dumb sap will figure out that he has blue eyes.[/li][li]Finally, the oracle must be known by all islanders to be infalliable. This was implicit in the earlier thread as well.[/li][/ul]

Just remember, even professors can be wrong. :wink:

im an idiot, but is anyone taking into account the oracle?

Ah, crap, I forgot to include the link to Chronos’ post in the previous thread.