On further re-reading, I’m not at all sure what Sam Stone is suggesting, other than everything.
But if ‘concerned citizens’ find nothing, it doesn’t mean there was nothing there. You’ll still need somebody who knows what to look for to go and check. So I don’t see that anything would have been achieved.
Tell me again, how many private citizens were involved in the investigation of 9/11.
I recall a number of items brought to the attention of the authorities by private citizens (e.g. the case of the flight instructor who found it curious that one of his students didn’t bother learning how to land).
And was any action taken? It’s easy to be a smart-ass after the event.
According to this arrests have already been made. As well as the person who put the bomb on the bus dying in the blast.
The existence of the various citizen tips, and the lack of response from government agencies, indicates that the problem is to be found in the latter. Thus, enhancing the role of the former would seem to be a promising line of development.
So, Sam Stone…the police have now identified suspects, tracked them to a property in Yorkshire and identified a suspect vehicle in Luton…your recommendations would have acheived what successes in the same time frame?
The latest new is that the London Bombers ‘were all British’ and that they appear to be Muslim.
A further report says that More than 1,000 calls have been made by the public to an anti-terrorist hotline. Police have studied 2,500 CCTV tapes
Once again, my ‘recommendations’ was merely to state a principle, which is that in a free society it might be better to leverage the strength of your freedom to enhance your security, rather than assuming that what you need is less freedom, more gatekeepers, tighter controls on information, yada yada yada. I offered the CCTV cameras as an example, and even said that I hadn’t thought through all the possible arguments, and there were sure to be some against that particular thing. You insist on micharacterizing what I say, nitpicking trivial details, and engaging in a long refutation as something I offered as a simple example of a much larger principle.
Using your “freedom” to enhance your “security” is a tricky thing. Agreed?
I’ll repeat myself (because I am only a “guest”, and therefore more likely to be ignored): Perhaps it is more about specific locality.
Perhaps Sam resides in a rural or suburban area? As I’ve said, what seems reasonable in some places would be untenable other places.
Sam, do you live in a major urban area or not? My guess is not. In which case, we should probably cut him some slack. I’d say he has good intentions.
It would appear that the major urban areas are the prime targets of terrorists. And yet, funnily enough, the people outside those areas are more likely to propose the most severe counter-terrorism measures.
Are these people prone to greater anxiety, or more boredom, or …???
Let us not discount feelings of powerlessness. Maybe people outside major city centers are more likely to try to compensate for those feelings?
Sam resides in a city of ~1 million. They don’t have a subway, but they do have a rather heavily used light rail system, if memory serves.
I think Sam’s getting a bit of a hard ride here, actually. I think some of his suggested methods of what he calls “leveraging freedom” are poorly thought out, but I haven’t seen him deny that. I do think that he’s making an important general point - too many times people proclaim the freedom in our societies as being a weakness with regards to defending against acts of terrorism. He thinks we should look for ways to make that weakness a strength, instead, and I think that’s a capital idea.
That said, making CCTV shots of transit systems available to the public gives me the willies. Course, having CCTV in the transit system to begin with gives me nearly as many willies.
It occurs to me that this particular argument is a sidetrack of the original premise.
So Sam, I ask you and those who might agree with you: How do any of your proposals deal with the prevention of possible future terror attacks?
I live within sight of what used to be the World Trade Center. I watched those towers fall, and I smelled the burnt bodies in the aftermath. And yet, I don’t walk out of my home each day with the siege mentality of “Better be prepared - today it might happen again.”
Do you understand that, Sam? We don’t think that way, and we don’t live that way, and we don’t want to live that way. There are all kinds of daily aggravations living in a major urban center, but we - so far - have refused to take on the additional burden of a wartime mentality.
Try to understand us, and listen to us. We are the frontline in your proclaimed “war” (unless I’ve missed a major terror attack somewhere other than a major urban area). Have all the fire drills you like, if it makes you feel better, but none of that negates the reality that those of us who live on the frontlines are the more likely targets of future attacks.
Why do you think we are for the most part not embracing your proposals?
I swear I previewed!
I agree with most of what you say, but I don’t mean to give Sam a hard time.
It would be nice, however, if people who are at low risk for a future attack would take the time consider the sensibilities and circumstances of the places that have already dealt with attacks, and face the possibility of future attacks. After 4 plus years, I’m getting weary of these arguments.
Thanks. You stated it very well. Yes, my examples were just stream of consciousness ideas just trying to illustrate a point. I think the point is valid, it just takes some creative thinking to come up with some concrete plans from the general principle.
Also, I think officials do not give the public nearly enough credit. How often have we heard that information must be withheld to avoid ‘panic’, or to prevent mob violence? And yet, when the information HAS been available, that hasn’t happened. The passengers of flight 93 didn’t panic - they calmly assessed the best plan of action and carried it out. Then the WTC towers came down, by all accounts New Yorkers handled themselves very well. As did the people in London. I think the public deserves more credit than they get from officialdom.
Sure they do. I’m scared to mention anything, for fear of having it nitpicked to death, but can we agree that say, the maintenance supervisor for a building might have some better ideas of its security weaknesses than an official in Washington? That the people who ride a subway every day might have a better eye for what looks out of place? That a community might have a better shot at detecting abnormal behaviour within it than a cop who’s just driving through?
As an example, do you know how the Maryland snipers were found? They slipped through police cordons several times. They were captured after an alert citizen spotted a suspicious vehicle at a rest stop with a man sleeping in it and notified police. I’d say that prevented more terrorism. Good thing the cops decided to make all of this information public and not withhold it 'to prevent ‘panic’.
Why are you getting so defensive? Who’s talking about siege mentality? I’m talking about the choice between taking our freedom away for ‘security’ and finding ways to leverage our freedom so that we can not only be safer but maintain our freedom. Why the hostility?
Uh, because you haven’t heard them? Because government officials have a natural mindset that causes them to think in terms of being the boss and using the hammer of government on every problem?
And quite frankly, I think it’s wrong of you to use the fact that you live in NYC as some sort of trump card in discussions of this sort. And why do you assume that I’m discussing this out of some sort of ‘siege mentality’? I’m not. Why can’t we have intellectual discussions on this damned board without someone always coming along and trying to make it personal?
Agreed to a point - but the “nitpicks” might make more sense to you if you knew my somewhat eccentric neighbors. 
It’s like a second amendment argument - I basically agree with the philosophy, but I’m very worried about my neighbors being armed - with itchy trigger fingers - and on the lookout for “terrorists” . Do you know how many “suspicious looking” people walk around in NYC on a daily basis? Maybe your neighbors are more reasonable and discerning (and less eccentric and fewer in number and further away).
I’ve already explained my personal motivation, and apologized for the tone in my initial reply. Why bring it up as a question now?
Not a trump card - just an explanation of where I’m coming from. My initial impression was that you were responding out of a siege mentality. I’ve already posted my reply to that, which you didn’t respond to. I’ll say it one more time: IMO, different locales have different needs. Do you agree with that, or not?
Here in NYC, we don’t need more “prepared” volunteers - but I make an allowance that it might be different wherever you are located. I’m sorry if this comes across as snarky, but honestly, I’m weary of explaining this to people who, more often than not, live in low risk areas, and yet seem to have such a high level of anxiety over the possibility of a terror attack. To the degree that they are willing to suspend the civil liberties of all of us in the interests of their “security”.
Again, this might not be what you meant to convey, and if so, my apology still stands for a possible misunderstanding. If that is the case, then let us drop that tack and move on to some possible prevention strategies that would allow for different needs in different locations.
Can’t they already pick up a phone and dial 999/911?
You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you want a greater primary role for the public, on the other you’re saying the public already have that primary role! I don’t understand what information are you congratulating the Maryland Police for not withholding - that the sniper existed at all?
I think your mistake might have been to post a general theory, not specifically relevant to London, in a thread titled ‘London attacked by terror attacks (What is the appropriate response?)’