London Hit By Terror Attacks (What is the appropriate response?)

Great Debates
61

Unfortunately the inevitable seems to have happened. With it large muslim population and reasonably porous border an attack in the UK was a matter of time IMO.

One of the stations hit was very close to where I once lived in London... a station I used frequently. Edgware Road. It brings things into a very personal and close perspective. I once lost neighbors in the Panam flight in Lockerbie too...

Its a very sad day… I love London…

Bricker thanks for the retraction…

This stinks of Al Qaeda… the style and targets:

62

it doesn’t damn well matter what Al-Q want or how they interpret it. We’re not puppets. We should do what is the best thing to do, however we judge it. If it’s in our national interest to pull out our troops (say to deploy more in Afghanistan now we lead the NATO mission there) , or if we judge its best for Iraq to pull out (because security is in the hands of militias and we’re nothing more than targets in Basra) then we do it. I can’t understand the eagerness of people to let terrorists manipulate us with their statements.

63

maybe we can put terrorist statements on our “ignore list” …

64

33 deaths and counting according to the Police Commissioner.

65

At least for the time being I think this would be a wise move. Firstly, while it does seem an al Qaeda style attack, there is no conclusive evidence thus far. Claims of responsibility by “al Qaeda related websites/groups” have been seen before

So at least for the time being I would prefer to wait for investigations rather than web pronouncements.

Enjoy,
Steven

66

As expected, the BBC waited for reliable confirmation - they’re now reporting 30+ dead.

67

In watching the CNN coverage which is detailing the four explosions and the 40 or so deaths, one of my first thoughts was that this must be what a typical day in Baghdad is like, post-invasion.

68

The bottom line is that there are extreme Islamists in all western countries who would love to kill innocent people of the west. I think there is only one way to stop them from succeeding. These people have and need a support network. That support network is other muslims. This does NOT mean that all Muslims favor these terrrorist tactics. buit rather that all (most) people who support it are, in fact, Muslims. Therefore, all western states should expect/demand that the leaders Mosques (which are often a front for madrassas where they teach a red hot hatred for the west) and other Muslim-based organizations strongly denounce these horrific activities and cooperate fully with authorities to make sure that their members are not terrorists or supportors of terrorists.

If this mindset is not adopted now, when? After six more bombings tomorrow, next week, next month? Governments have a right and a RESPONSIBILITY to protect their citizens. It is time to err on the side of caution.

To one of the early poster who offered that he/she hoped that the people involved would be brought to justice. (I read that as terrorism is a law enforcement problem.) This is not enough. Let’s say twelve people who were responsible for the attacks did not die in them. Capturing and bringing them to justice is just step one. Does anyone really believe that their convictions will stop the next twelve, or twelve hundred?

Terrorism on a sustained basis needs two things: terrorists and a network to support them. If you find an ant in your house and kill it. And find another one another day, and the more of them on subsequent days you would rightly conclude that killing (bringing to justice) each ant as you encountered it is NOT going to solve your problem. That you’d have to somehow get to the nest.

The nest for Islamic terrorists exists in the back rooms of some mosques and some Muslim organizations. We, the target states of the terrorists, must take actions that will, if not eliminate, make it much more difficult for terrorists to due us harm.

Naturally, we should be highly repectful of Muslims in doing this. I believe the vast majority of them mourn for Britain’s victims as much as anyone does. But we should be insistent, as well, that they show to us that they and their organizations are on the side of the civilized world and do not assist in or condone the cowardly s of a group of fanatics living in the tenth century.

(And yes, they are cowards. Here that Bill Maher? It takes no courage to commit an act in which the outcome you desire is guaranteed. These nuts WANT to die. They are trying to die. To say that they are brave is to apply our western morality and reverence for life on them. And they are worthy of it. They flat out reject it.)

It is time fot the pendulum to swing the other way. Safety first. Hurt feelings can be dealt with when murderous fanaticism is exorcised from Islam. Good Muslims should join in this effort. In fact, if they wish to rescue their religion of peace from those who contort it for evil, they should lead the effort.

My deep, deep, condolences to the families of friends of all those who were murdered this morning, and to England iteslf.

69

The similarity to the Madrid Bombings is creepy… needless to say it seems that the same guys got away from Spain to repeat their performance. Seems intelligence services failed again…

70

As soon as our western leaders stop sacrificing humans on the altar of crusading politics and special interests groups. Its not a black and white issue as you seem to beleive. No concentration camps for unruly muslims either. Though I agree that Muslim clerics are a bit to silent about it.

71

Well, that and the assumptions that experts on the topic have also apparently made:

“Bin Laden may have been emboldened by the aftermath of commuter train bombings in Madrid in March, specialists say. The bombings, which killed 191 people, caused a wave of anger in Spain that helped topple a conservative, pro-U.S. government. Spanish voters, who went to the polls three days after the bombings, overwhelmingly elected a Socialist government that proclaimed its distance from the Bush administration and quickly pulled Spanish troops out of Iraq.”

“The events in Spain were a success, from bin Laden’s point of view,” said Mohammad Salah, an expert on Islamic militants at the pan-Arab newspaper Al-Hayat. “The Madrid bombings changed the course of the Spanish elections, and the U.S. lost an ally. … This could have motivated bin Laden to think that he could achieve other political victories.”

Cite

72

Part of it IS a black and white issue. Namely, that governements need to protect their citizens. They can take baby steps to get there or big leaps. But they won’t have lived up to their responsibilities until people are safe. Period. And they are allowed and mandated to go as far as necessary to achieve those ends. Western leaders should look to one of the greatest western leaders from time past: Abe Lincoln, who had the intelligence and balls to do what was necessary to save the country. In his time it meant suspending habeas corpus. Whatever it means in our time, it needs to be done. Now. Before the terrorist plots that are being planned as we have a nice debate on SD have a chance to come to fruition.

73

Such as?

What might that be?

74

Ants do not generally build their nests amongst [insert cuddly insects here]. Pouring boiling water over the problem will target more than those deserving it. What if a bee is caught in the downpour and the hive is called on to seek justice for their brothers unjust death?

Now is not the time to bumble around and consider everyone an enemy until proven otherwise. We need to show that, despite some, we are not ruled by emotion and the need for revenge. We need to show that we can act with restraint, that we can act without being held by, without evoking, fear. That’s their game, not ours.

Naturally those that support terrorists should be punished harshly. We must punish them as we punish everybody else suspected of a crime. First, get the evidence. Second, verify the damn evidence. Only last should we declare them guilty and act accordingly.

Last time we considered people guilty without verified evidence, killed people unrelated to the crime itself. Those actions only brought us to this end.

75

Thanks for the help, SlyFrog. It won’t make any difference though. Dealing with this cause and effect issue does not fit into the world view of certain people and they will intellectually contort themselves to great length to avoid it.

76

What of the cause and effect of war? What of the cause and effect of striking out at someone without proper evidence, all to satisfy the human lust for revenge?

77

Is anybody, “expert” or otherwise, seriously suggesting that al-Qaeda wouldn’t have attacked London if Aznar had been re-elected in Spain?

I mean, our leaders have been assuring us right along that terrorists are attacking us because they hate our freedoms and they’re opposed to the whole idea of democracy and so on, not because they’re trying to browbeat us into complying with some specific policy objectives they have. In other words, it’s not simple cause and effect depending on particular policies: they’re just trying to kill us because they’re evil hateful people.

Now some people seem to be arguing along the lines of “see, the reason the terrorists are still attacking us is because we encouraged them by complying with their particular policy objectives; it’s a cause and effect issue”. You can’t have it both ways.

I said it after the Madrid bombings and I say it again now: it is stupid to allow terrorists to dictate our policies, in any way. We shouldn’t automatically do what we think terrorists want us to do, and we also shouldn’t automatically do the opposite. The right thing is for us to pursue what we consider to be the right policies for the right reasons, and leave terrorist objectives out of it.

78

We’ve been over the Madrid bombings and the elections before. I’d rather not go into depth there again. From the testimony of Spanish Dopers and news reports/analysis I would disagree that it was the bombings which toppled the incumbent Spanish government. I would argue, as does the cite I just gave, that

Ousting “manipulators” and “liars” is not the same as capitulating to terrorists. So I think Al-Hayat’s expert is off base from the start. Just as he would be off base if he concluded that the US pulling troops out of bases in Saudi Arabia meant that 9/11 “was a success, from bin Laden’s point of view”.

Enjoy,
Steven

79

A fair question, to which there is no certain answer.

Were there fence-sitter fundamentalists who were encouraged by the perceived success of the attacks, and convinced thereby to finally cross over to become terrorists themselves? Was there a morale boost to the terrorists from the attack that would not have been there if the government had not changed? I do not have the answer to that. Unlike some, I’m not willing to reach into my bag of omniscience and say it had no impact whatsoever.

80

Are there any Dopers hurt? shaken